Desicritics Author: Chandra

UPA Government and Mumbai: Election Posturing or Statesmanship?

Chandra — Tue, 23 Dec 2008 01:47:51 EST

The last few days have been really interesting. Our foreign minister has been talking about all kinds of 'options', we have submitted a 'letter' to the Pakistanis from Kasab, Condy Rice talks about Terrorism destroying Pakistan and the Pakistanis themselves have become even more defiant (apart from Air exercises).

In some circles, it appears we are inexorably heading towards war and in some circles, the feeling is nothing is likely to happen (2001-2002).

My opinion is that the current congress government is just posturing. They are incapable of doing anything. This is evidenced by two major news stories over the last one week.a. The demand to hand over Masood Azhar

There are four names that are floating around with respect to the attack on Mumbai - Yusuf Muzammil, Zaki-Ur-Rehman Laqkhvi, Hafiz Saeed and Dawood Ibrahim. So the question is why are we demanding that they hand over Masood Azhar? Well, that is because the previous (equally spineless) BJP Government had handed over this clown during the Kandahar Hijacking. They want to get him back so that they can parade him during the next elections. Yes, Ladies and Gentlemen, this Government gives a rat ass to the attack on Mumbai, they are worried about the next elections.b. The inability to deal with AR Antulay

All of us are now familiar with AR Antualy's comments. AR Antulay is a marginalised politician in Maharashtra. Once a powerful CM, he has now dissolved in the background. He claims, he represents many Muslims when he says Hemant Karkare was sent in the wrong direction to his death. I think he is being coy.

The fact of the matter is that out of the 15 policemen who were killed on the 26th-28th, five of them were killed in that single Qualis. Whoever killed the 3 top ATS men, the fact of the matter is that as a Govt minister, there is a time and place to bring about these allegations.

To do it openly means one of the two things. a. A fear that the Govt will sweep these under the carpet and b. Why lose an opportunity to garner a few votes? A simple analysis of the situation is that seasoned politicians like these give a rat's ass to the truth, so (b). is a more likely reason. That brings us to how the Government has responded to his statements. They have two options - a. either agree with or b. disagree with him. Instead of doing either, they have spent the last 3-4 days doing focus groups to understand the impact of his dismissal. It is ironical that the original ATS investigation (and daily leaks) by Mr. Karkare had won them so many Muslim votes and now in his death there is a possibility that they will lose many of these votes. Anyway, the time they took to arrive at the decision indicates the level of seriousness within the congress in dealing with the attack on Mumbai.

It is frustrating to see the way our Govt is handling an obvious attack from across the border. As an Indian citizen, Dec 31, 1999 was the most humiliating day of my life. This Govt is doing it’s very best to reach that nadir. Somebody save us. Jai Hind!

Indian Television Media: Things going wrong?

Chandra — Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:56:25 EST

The advantage of an active media is that other elements of society are very careful about how they conduct themselves. A vigorous media is important for the very survival of society. However, I am increasingly fed up with our TV channels are operating.

a. Most TV Channels are stuck by ideology. Before the attack, most of them were left of centre, out of touch with most people. After the attack, most of them have moved right of centre, again out of touch with most people.

b. Improper coverage: I am not an expert but providing information like ' five commandos are in the front, twenty are in the back' is not the kind of information I should be sharing, more so with terrorists having access to the same information. Some degree of editorial control is required.

c. Agenda: NDTV and CNN IBN are running a specific agenda to save the Govt in the current elections and the General elections as well. By converting a failure under the watch of this Govt to a larger issue of anti-politicians, I see nothing but a strategy to protect the current Govt. The Govt has failed and in a democracy they should be punished. Why drag the opposition parties into this?

d. Sensationalism: A week before, all news channels were publishing salacious details of the Malegaon investigation. Most of this information was from 'sources'. Sorry, ALL the information was from unnamed 'sources'. The same trend continues with this investigation. Can't these media channels invest in resources to investigate on their own? Till date nobody has been able to find out where Terrorist Kasav is from.

e. Candle lights: Fashion of the day that has been foisted on us by the media and now fashionable amongst our educated elite. I feel embarrassed that when we get whacked the way we did, candle lights are our best response? Most of us donot even want to vote or contest elections.

Why Did They Attack India?

Chandra — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:21:45 EST

Here are some reasons why terrorists attacked India and Mumbai in the manner that they did:

a. To severely impact Foreign business involvement in india

The attack on high end business targets is clearly meant to dissuade foreigners from travelling to India and conducting business.

b. To severely humiliate the Indian nation and its people

The extended period of this drama along with no major demands/ lack of negotiations clearly indicate that terrorists were only interested in creating a climate of chaos and uncertainty.

C. To create tensions between Pakistan and India leading to withdrawal of Pak forces from the Afghan border

Our natural tendency is to blame Pakistanis for any attack and that leads to irrational behaviour (Like sending troops to the border after Dec 13). This gives any 3rd party the opportunity to exploit us. Moving troops out of the Afghan border would ease pressure on the Taliban and associated militants in the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.

D. To send a strong message to Hindus that Indian Muslims know how to defend themselves.

The last few attacks during the year have come from inside. A lot of this in retaliation to the violence in Gujarat and perceived ill-treatment of muslims. This attack is a strong reminder to ordinary Hindus is that Muslims can strike back and hard if this harassment continues.

It is difficult to gauge the relative importance of each of these but it is fairly clear that they have succeeded in most if not all objectives.

There has been enormous criticism of politicians but I believe they are only one of many reasons that have brought us to where we are. Let us look at our daily lives and see if we are leading perfect lives - we don't pay taxes, donot contest elections, make illegal extensions to our property, exploit maids/cooks, drive like nuts and the list goes on. Naturally the smarter ones amongst us then becomes a politician. This culture has to change and from within each one of us.

At the end of the day, it does not matter whether Pakistan is involved. Just like us, they are severely compromised and lack the courage to change direction. This is a sad time for both nations - unless we have very strong leadership in both our countries, we are heading for destruction. Jai Hind!

Do Locals Hold 90% of The Jobs in Mumbai?

Chandra — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 01:30:03 EST

The TOI posted a story today that quotes a Maharashtra Govt "report" on the percentage of locals employed in Mumbai's SMEs. It that shows that more than 90% of the jobs in Mumbai SMEs are held by locals. This is another example of widespread mis-reporting that our media resorts to these days.

The data was quoted in the context of the MNS protest. Naturally, a headline figure of 90% implies that this story is contrary to what the MNS is fighting for. However, this is not true

a. The 90% refers to an overall universe of 1.1 million workers. However, the working population of Mumbai is more than 6 million (census 2001). Therefore the 90% refers to only one sixth of labour population. Nobody knows which one sixth they are referring to

b. It does not share with us data on the definition of locals. Does locals mean those who have spent more than 15 years in Mumbai (Mah Govt definition)? or does it mean 'Marathi Manoos' that the MNS are fighting for? I can conclude that the data refers to people who spent > 15 years in Mumbai

c. The story does not actually state the source of this data - "officials in the state industries department" is the same as "sources in the ATS". Why can't they provide us with the links or the precise source- Eg: Mr Khanolkar from the Department of Industries?

In other words, the 90% figure means nothing. It is not comprehensive and is not related to the issue that the MNS has raised. Pointless story pretending to dispute the larger issue.

I noticed a second story in the TOI that I was intriguing to the say the least. The TOI reports

'The anti-terrorism squad investigating the recent Malegaon bomb blasts has recorded the statement of arrested Lt-Col Shrikant

Purohit's colleague Capt Nitin Joshi who reportedly said that Purohit had told him about pilfering RDX'

The Economic Times reports

'Maharashtra Anti-Terror Squad’s (ATS) investigation into Lt Col Shrikant Prasad Purohit’s involvement in terror activities got a boost on

Tuesday when an instructor (Captain Nitin Joshi) at Nashik’s Bhonsala Military Training School recorded a statement with the police that the the Malegoan blast suspect had confided in him about possessing RDX'

The TOI suggests that Captain Nitin Joshi worked with Lt Col Purohit in the Army while the ET suggests that Captain Joshi worked with the Bhonsala Military Training school. Weird that the same newspaper reports things differently.

Here is an interesting article that reports how the NASA GISS reported that October was the hottest month ever and then rescinded the same after bloggers pointed out to data collection errors in Russia.

Be careful of what you read these days. Validation is critical as everybody is driven by their own agenda

Is Test Cricket Dying in India?

Chandra — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:47:26 EST

Congratulations to MSD and team for a well deserved victory over the Aussies. I think we played quite well in friendly conditions and the Aussies did not capitalise on opportunities that they were given throughout the series.

Moving onto the topic of discussion, have you been reading articles (largely in the western media) predicting the death of test cricket in India due to the 'hugely popular' IPL? If you haven't, here is a sample - 1. 2. 3.

The common narrative in all these articles is - Twenty 20 has taken off, stadiums are empty for test matches and the natives have no appreciation for the finer points of Test cricket. They like bang bang twenty 20 cricket over other forms. Being a fan of cricket (any), I found this very irritating. Naturally, I investigated this issue further. Here is what I found -

1. 48 million viewers watched the test series between India versus South Africa. 50 million watched India versus Sri Lanka. Mind you, neither of these teams enjoy the popularity of an India versus Pakistan or an India versus Australia series

2. On the day of the final test match between India and Australia, I was zipping around the city for client meetings. Everybody seemed to be glued to the test match. Either through TVs in their offices or other ways like web, mobile etc. In my office, almost every guy kept an eye on the score during the entire series. Now, that does not appear to be evidence against test cricket

3. I also called a few friends across the country and almost everybody was following the series. Now you can argue all of this is anecdotal information and that we need hard statistics.

Thankfully, the results are in. In the first 18 days of the Australia series, 27 million watched India versus Australia. How different is this from the IPL? 31 million watched the IPL during the first 18 days. In other words, there is hardly a difference between IPL and the popular India versus Australia series.

4. It is irritating to read about how unpopular Test cricket is India. I know that most of these conclusions are based on spectators in our stadiums. One journalist pointed out to the almost empty stands in Mohali to arrive at the conclusion that test cricket was dying in India. Our friend probably did not read this story about half empty Mohali during an IPL match. These journalists also probably missed this story as well. The fact of the matter is that going to a stadium to watch Test cricket is a horrible experience in India. The facilities are poor, no action replays and the tickets are worth more than a month's cable connection. Yes, 30000 people do watch Test cricket at Lords but what million of UK waste their time at work discussing the latest test match? Hardly anybody (They probably do that for Football). Whereas we Indians waste a lot of time at work discussing test cricket at work. (pun intended)

Most of these 'Test cricket is dead' stories are written by Journalists who hate the BCCI. They think that the BCCI wants to kill Test cricket and occupy the world or something like that. The reality is that India played 17 test matches during the last 12 months. One of the highest amongst all teams.

Please attack the BCCI as much as you wish but please leave us test cricket followers alone. This is India and we love cricket, any cricket.

Missionaries Have Little Impact on Indian Society

Chandra — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:54:33 EDT

Our Liberal news channels have been spewing hatred against Hindus for the last few weeks on the basis of what I believe are lies. Let us examine some points made by the media

a. Missionaries play a critical role in education:

WRONG

Less than 3% of all students go to a missionary school (ICSE web-site). This is in line with the proportion of Christian population. Ironically, most students in a missionary school are neither Christians nor poor caste Hindus. No sir, they are elite, secular Hindus

b. Missionaries play a critical role in healthcare

WRONG

90% of healthcare services are provided by the Govt, another 9% by the non-missionary private sector. This is according to what I found from Govt web-sites. Assuming it is even higher, it will again be no more than 3% of the population
c. Conversion is economically beneficial to the Individual and family

WRONG

There is no data to support this contention. The overall data shows that Christians are better off than other religious groups. But then many converted Christians are ex-upper castes as well. CSO data does confirm that upper castes have higher incomes than other castes. Anecdotal evidence also suggests that benefits (if any) are short term in nature

d. Missionaries are sanguine, peace loving folks

WRONG

Historically, this is not true. Missionaries have often worked hand in hand with brutal militia all over the world. It is only the minority status in India that prevents missionaries in India from brutalising all of us

What is the truth about missionaries?

a. They spread lies

Most of these missionaries are funded by right wing nuts from southern part of the United States. This crowd believes in creationism crap rather than on rational scientific theory. Is this what we Indians want in our country?
For years we have been trying to get rid of superstition and other religious nonsense and now our educated liberals fall for this evangelical nonsense.

b. They spread hatred

Enough has been said and shown on these pages that show what missionaries have been printing and saying about Hindus in our country. They seem to suggest that Hindus and Hinduism are inferior to all religions. Apart from violating law, these comments are an assault on the secular fabric of our nation

What should the Government do?

a. Ban all religious bodies from managing educational institutes.
b. Allow for conversions but ban missionaries
c. Block all foreign funds sent to local missionary organisations
d. Separate charity activity from missionary activity.
e. Ban all job reservations from lower castes of Christian community

The above measures will help India become a more secular country. Jai Hind!!

The Muslim World - A 'Neutral' View

Chandra — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:57:35 EDT

Recently, I had the opportunity to attend an industry event and the good fortune to attend a presentation on Muslim attitudes across the world. The difference in this presentation is that the authors are Indians based in Dubai and not some western researcher based in New York. Here, I am pleased to share with you some of the findings of this research

The research was designed to segment the market in such a way that marketers can subsequently target each of these segments with customised products. An example would be 'Islamic banking'. A 'conservative' Muslim would be an excellent target for this concept. Therefore one must note that the authors designed this research not to understand the political machinations of the Muslim world but to help marketers identify opportunities in the Muslim world. The two main objectives of the research were a. Understand values that resonate across the Muslim world, and b. Understand differences in value systems that could impact the choices made by consumers The following countries were covered - Algeria, Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Pakistan, Malaysia and Indonesia. About 7000 citizens were interviewed in these countries, a sample size large enough to draw meaningful interpretations about each of these countries. Summary of findings: :

a. While Family was paramount across the region, marital insecurity amongst women was high in some regions (MENA)

b. There was an over-riding desire for traditions to adapt to changing times

c. There was almost universal emphasis on the Importance of education amongst both men and women

d. A large proportion of people felt that Individual opinions should be respected

e. A large proportion aspired to be a part of a social forum wherein they can voice their views and concerns

In other words, most of what Muslim world customers want is not significantly different from what the average household in New York, Tel Aviv or New Delhi wants.

Apart from these basic findings, the researchers attempted to segment these individuals on the basis of their beliefs and attitudes. The five segments they identified are

a. Religious Conservatives: These are extremely religious individuals, and also extremely conservative. They do not approve of gender interaction. They also expect others to follow religious practices. They are anti-media and information averse. They would override their personal choices for religious beliefs

b. Societal Conformists: These are individuals who believe that social norms should be adhered to, even if it means overriding personal choice. They do not approve of a reason based approach. They lack self confidence and depend on others to make decisions. At the same time they are not particularly religious themselves.

c. Pragmatic strivers: These individuals are non-traditional & ambitious. They are open minded, and are willing to compromise on religious values in order to get ahead in life. They are also economically the least affluent group.

d. Liberals: These people are very liberal, independent and assertive. They are not very particular about traditions & religious practices. They like to explore different options even if those do not conform to accepted religious/ societal norms.

e. New Age Muslims: These are religious individuals, yet they do not expect others to follow religious practices. They believe in societal progression and support female empowerment and gender equality. They are pro-media and realize the potential advantages of internet.

I need to warn you in advance that segmenting people has often been a challenge and it is highly likely that many of us may end up being a member of more than one group. The idea is to associate an individual to a group closest to his/her beliefs and attitudes.

Now, the question is whether a country segmented on the basis of these segments matched with the perception amongst outsiders about them? The answer is yes and no. A few snippetsa. Which country has the highest proportion of religious conservatives in their population?

Ans: Egypt, closely followed by Jordanb. Which country has the highest proportion of liberals in their population?

Ans: Turkey, followed by Pakistanc. Isn't Saudi Arabia a very conservative country?

Ans: Yes and No. Only 15% of the population have been identified as 'conservative' as opposed to nearly 50% in the case of Egypt and Jordan. However if you include 'societal conformists', this figure would increase to close t 40%d. What about Pakistan?

Ans: Again, only 10-15% of the population can be classified as 'conservative'. Add 'social conformists' and this comes to only 30%. e. Which country has the largest proportion of 'New age Muslims’?

Ans: UAE followed by Pakistan and Saudi Arabiaf. Which country has the largest proportion of 'Pragmatic strivers'?

Ans: Indonesia, followed by Malaysiag. What about Iran?

Ans: A very small proportion of the population can be classified as 'conservative'. 2/3rds of the population are 'new age', liberal' or 'pragmatic'Some of the findings of this research surprised many who thought they knew everything about the Muslim world. I thought it was an excellent research paper which attempted to provide a more practical understanding of Muslims across the Muslim world. While one can disagree with the size of the segments, the clear underlying conclusion is that Muslims are far more like us than the terrorists that many people associate them with. It is a pity that 30% of world's Muslims were not covered in the research (India and Bangladesh) but I suspect our Muslims would be more like Turkey rather than Pakistan. Hopefully our friends in the right understand this and figure out ways to reach out to our Muslim brothers. The current factionalism is ruining the nation.

Source: AMRB JWT research. This will be available shortly via syndication

Mumbai Chronicles, Part -3

Chandra — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 00:45:36 EDT

This is my third week in Mumbai now. We are now beginning to settle down and also getting a sense of how the city is organised. I travelled a couple of times to the Southern half of the city and clearly that is another world altogether. Nice roads, trees, greenery et al, just like any other city. Apart from South Mumbai the big positive about Mumbai are the Auto rickshaw guys. They take you to your destination without 'ghumana' (Delhi) or 'abuse' (Bangalore). The only problem if any is the quality of the meters. I am yet to determine whether they are rigged or they are generally inefficient.

We continue to be challenged by the process of settling down. A summary of recent irritants -

a. Broadband access - We probably made a mistake by subscribing to a cable internet connection. Our experience in Bangalore a few years ago was very good and it was natural to expect the same here. However, the connection is down at least once a day and for many hours altogether. It is even more irritating what with the current Global economic crisis. Thankfully the GPRS Edge connectivity is very good and I have often used it when I have had no broadband access.

b. Navigating through my local supermarket - Apart from atrociously laid out stores, some people can be generally uncivilised. Either they are banging their trolleys onto you, parking their trolleys mid-way or sneezing on you. Naturally, we have been looking at other stores that are likely to have shoppers are at least more civilised.

c. Availability of Eggs: I cannot even believe that I am talking about this. Of the 8 stores close to my home, not one store stocks eggs. I have lived in so many cities in India but this one beats them all. Anyway, I have found one seller in the vicinity and the poor guy hides the eggs in a rucksack or something.

d. Traffic and roads: Having heard all the complaints from Bangaloreans about traffic and roads, I would strongly recommend that they live in Mumbai for about a month. Their expectations about Indian roads will change dramatically. The problem with Bangaloreans is that most of them compare their roads with Massachusetts and not Mumbai.

Apart from these and a few other irritants, things are fine. It has been two weeks since I started work and I am getting used to my team. I am taking over from my colleague who in turn is moving abroad. He is a very good manager and that means my team is quite loyal to him. I have always been an average sort of guy in managing teams at work and I suspect that would be the case here as well. Good luck to my team members.

One of the strange things is the makeup of my team. Only one of the X folks is from outside the city. The rest are Mumbaikars who have NEVER lived outside of Mumbai. I have been a serial migrant and it is kind of interesting to imagine working with folks who have a lived a sum total of 4 weeks outside the city. Our business needs incredible understanding of people across the country and most of my team have never been to places other than touristy locations, hotel conference rooms or client offices. The question is, can you understand India without being out of your home city?

We have been catching up with friends after many years and last night we caught up with a good friend of mine of many years. We had a very intense debate on the MNS 'outsiders' protests. My friend like most Mumbaikars found great revulsion in the MNS campaign. As an outsider myself, I felt Mumbai needs to be fixed and I felt that migration was one of many problems in the city. Naturally we disagreed and the debate went on for some time. I think we are heading for a culture war of sorts. On one side of the debate you have people like my friend, well meaning, idealistic but not practical and on the other side, people like me who are very practical but also willing to push the borders of legal behaviour. I reckon that dictators often came to power because of the impatience of people like me. Food for thought........

Mumbai Chronicles, Part 2

Chandra — Thu, 2 Oct 2008 02:37:07 EDT

As I was saying, I recently relocated to Mumbai and in the middle of settling down here. Continuing with the part about looking for accommodation, one of the first things you would notice is the amount of rentals you have to pay. It is no different from London at half the wages and 1/10th the quality of life. In fact, what bewilders me is why anyone from other cities in India would ever want to trade their relatively comfortable lives with this one. Anyway, I digress. One of the common things I noticed is that the kind of rentals desired by some landlords has no correlation with the quality of the property. I donot think this is a Mumbai thing but really, if you want to rent out your property, atleast clear up the bird shit. Just because your property is in one of most well known buildings in Mumbai does not mean people want to live in shit.

As I said before, rentals in Mumbai are not rational and as much as I wish I am wrong, I can only see it going one way and that is downwards. As one agent says, there is nothing in the world that will go up all the way all the time, Mumbai property is a good example. I think at some point businesses will look to set up HQs elsewhere as they have when financial capitals have become expensive in other countries. Anyway, rentals quoted and finally negotiated are quite different. A few years ago, bargaining in Mumbai unlike Delhi did not work (atleast that was my experience). Now, things have changed, one guy dropped rentals by 25k a month in a matter of 24 hours, another by 10 K and this was after adding all sorts of furniture to the home. Anyway, we liked this really nice property overlooking a 'lake' and into other buildings :-). We promptly booked it and the landlord was kind enough to move from hotel to the building in a matter of days. I think it also helped because me and him were from the same community. As much as we hate this, rentals being a dicey thing, landords and tenants develop a whole host of irrational criteria to rent a home. I recall having been rejected in Delhi because i was not Bong and in Bangalore because I was not punjabi. You lose some and win some. Anyway, to be honest, we had very low expectations and we are thankful that we did manage to lay our hands at a decent property at a reasonable price. Let us see how this pans out.

One thing that I sensed during this transaction is is how property agents change their attitude when you start pushing for a deal. Suddenly they were calling you, picking you up, saying nice things etc etc. As a customer I would always like to be treated well, not such when I was interested in a property. Atleast this is what we would do in our business, go out of our way to swing business in our favor.

With the critical task of property done, the next task was to buy durables and a car. My wife was hating every bit of the traffic and pollution and therefore the car became very critical. Our first visit to a dealer was excellent. One of the things that you would notice as a difference between Mumbai and Bangalore is the sheer number of people who speak English or are comfortable conversing in the language. Nevertheless, our first visit to the dealership was a disaster. Our sales guy spent 30 minutes with us of which 28 minutes were on the phone. Decency forced us to leave the dealership with some choicest words to the staff there. This is not uniquely Mumbai, some salespeople are idiots and their survival is completely dependent on the fact that many customers walk into a dealership after having decided to buy a specific model.

When I moved to Mumbai, I was told about its fast life and professionalism. My experience with the traffic and the people shows that Mumbai is no exception to how we operate across the country. But then I have been here for 8 days.

Mumbai Chronicles, Part 1

Chandra — Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:17:32 EDT

Finally, I am here. I am in Mumbai, the capital of 'spirits', 'fast life', 'high rentals', 'hype', sensex and Bollywood. It is inevitable that anybody who moves to Mumbai comes here with pre-conceived notions. There is just too much information around. To be honest, I hate Mumbai to the core. Yes, hate is the word. However, God has myriad ways of testing us and as circumstances turned out, me and wifey landed her last week. Both of us have taken up tough roles and hopefully we will do well. It has been a week since we moved here and already I have a decent summary to write about.

We landed here on Monday night with the intention of moving to a service apartment that is apparently value for money. They claim to be a 'perfect' replacement to a stay at an expensive hotel. An ideal 'home away from home'. The reality is that the apartment itself was half constructed, the bathroom smelt of urine, there was no telephone or wireless. Anyway, we decided that we had to logout and we did that first thing in the morning. While we were upset we agreed that it was pointless brooding over this. We evaluated our situation and decided to move to a hotel, recommended by our friends. While it was almost twice the cost of the apartment, it was a pleasant stay.

With an inauspicious start, we wanted to get on with the most critical part of Week 1 - Searching for an apartment to move into. A few calls to property agents and we had appointments for the day. The thing about property agents is that they always have somethingt to how. The experienced ones take an educated guess after meeting with you as to what they should show you and the not so experienced ones take you through the whole rigmarole.