Male Dominance and Historical Wrongs done to Women

sumanth:

no dice!

you set up a straw argument and then bulldoze it

[This guilt has....safe for women.]

to oversimplify...men and women are the two wheels of life. both merit equal treatment.

temporal,

"men and women are the two wheels of life. both merit equal treatment."

Exactly.

However, equality in yellow zone (in picture) is not achievable.

Its the mindset and methods, not the intentions that are a suspect.

Tell me that there is no guilt in men for "historical wrongs"?

Tell me that people are grounded in reality and are not paranoid to compensate for "historical wrongs".

sumanth:

the solution should be fair, consentual, amicable and arrived at jointly

not imposed

as a first step

accord due respect to the other

temporal,

"the solution should be fair, consentual, amicable and arrived at jointly"

Is it what democrats in US, UN officials and other human rights organisations doing? They are full of vitriolic rhetoric.

I will refer to statements by Senators Kerry, Delahunt, Boxer, Cardin and many more in another article.

Women's situation has improved in last 40 years worldwide and it is improving.

However, with every victory, the anger in women and the guilt and self blame in men is shooting up.

And men are pushed further into outer fringes and women are made to risk a complete backlash and revolt.

Then, women complain that men are commitment phobic.

---------------
My guess is, it is all done by economic giants to force women quickly into workforce for boosting economies worldwide. It is not certainly women's empowerment.
---------------

Just think of number of guns that are bought and sold every day in United States. It is a regular news that police often shoots down guys, who have guns during an arrest. A simple investigation is done and the file gets closed.

Men are kept in the red zone.

No one talks about violence against men by other men and no one is interested for any radical measures there (due to commercial interests or otherwise). Just look at the global arms industry, which earns money to feed people.

A man, who lost his job can not pay child support and he can not even defend himself by hiring a lawyer. What do you do? The governments puts him in jail and then turns him into a criminal or drug addict.

Now, the school books will teach boys to feel guilty about what their people of their gender did to girls for centuries. Is that what is called sensible thinking?

Why do people watch "Do Ankhe, Baara Haath"(a famous movie)?

Why do people say each Sunday,"hate the sin, not the sinner?"

Whatever it is, one does not experience being powerful in that red hot zone and its neurotic to live a life feeling guilty and being apologetic every moment by moment.

thank you for your insights which have unrelated merits;)

Sumanth

You are right about man being strong and defends woman against all those violent forces. But man's strenght turns inward and rather than protecting woman abuses her, then that is not the intenation of the nature in the evolutionary process. If he was able to look after a large number of women because he protected them and maintained a harem in the past, there is no need for him to do so now. And if he continues to do so then that is also abuse of his strngth. Therefore if he is feeling guilty, it is rightly so. He misused his strength against women and contunues to do so even now. Just look around.

Now we not only interact with natural violence but we also combat man made violence. And as we evolve our thinking we realize that the playing field has been uneven. So we must take necessary steps to make it as even as we can in spite of the differences you pointed out.

There is nothing wrong in man feeling guilty and taking appropriate steps to make women as eaqual as he caould possibly do. If he is not feeling guilty then there is something wrong.

If women feels they got discriminated or oppressed by not letting them come out to the 'harsh environment' and wish to come out why should you block them?

"There is nothing wrong in man feeling guilty and taking appropriate steps...."

You justify my assertions and the whole theory.

======
There is a predominant view among men that men must feel guilty and being guilty is the best way to create a better world.
======

I completely disagree.

Because it is a very pathetic context and such a context in stead of giving results will create more problems.

There is no fun, if I remain guilty at home, at workplace and whenever I interact with women, men and society.

Life sucks...

-----
Please note, a male child never wants to go to periphery as he grows up. So, what did the tribes and societies do?

1) Boost his ego.

2) Praise him...."raja beta....hmmmmmm".

3) Create superiority complex.

"Beta.....ladki jaisa rote nahin."

4) Make him feel proud for bravery and his sacrifices. (Movie Sholey)

5) Blame him if he fails. "Nikamma"

6) Finally make him feel guilty when he fails to conform.

So, we are continuously creating a good percentage of losers among men. They go onto become terrorists, murderers, drugs addicts and then we spend trillions of dollars to punish or reform them.

-----
Right now, you are trying to push males into the periphery by saying that "males should feel guilty and make sacrifices and accept society's distrust towards them with a brave heart."

The problem is:

The whole paradigm remains the same. It will not reduce violence against women till men remain in the red zone.

For example, when a woman psychologically tortures her husband, the society laughs at him, the police and counsellors deny him services saying "he should feel guilty for historical injustices and he should take all that insults and abuse with a brave heart".

When the limit cross, that guy batters or murders her. This gets into statistics and studies. You convert that statistics into "number of women murdered per hour" and ask for further denial of access to counselling for men.

The vicious circle is complete. Who gains out of it? No one.

But, people are righteous with their views and they will not even question their views and see any new thought with filters and discard it if it does not match with their old thoughts.

I have used some very scientific methods (in the background) related to create this model. I have not pulled this out of thin air.

(I will give the background of that science in another article.)

In reality, my problem is not with women or feminism. My problem is with society, which tells me to "feel guilty for something that I have not done" and the society distrusts me for my gender.

Temporal talks about equality for genders. Then, where does this "guilt" fit in?

"Now we not only interact with natural violence but we also combat man made violence. And as we evolve our thinking we realize that the playing field has been uneven."

Why there is man made violence? How does man made violence come to existence?

A boy does not bring man made violence or instincts for suicide bombing from mother's womb.

When our thinking evolves, we see that unevenness is due to the gradient.

By making men feel guilty, by forcing them to make sacrifices, the gradient is kept as it is or is made steeper.

A woman says to partner,"You bastard. Come....hit me. I will call police".

What does she do? She pushes him to periphery by invoking threat of violence from society (or police).

Look carefully,
=====================
That increases the gradient and hence unevenness. This makes the overall situation worse.
=====================

Complex systems do not work 2 + 2 = 4.

They have vicious circles every where.

sumanth:

you must have inherited something from your mother?

and no ss is wrong. travel does not necessarily broadens horizon

"But man's strenght turns inward and rather than protecting woman abuses her, then that is not the intention of the nature".

Nature has no intentions of any kind. Nature does not give a damn about what happens to ape descendant male and female life forms.

However, there is a domino effect.

Men still act as a cushion and men are still forced by "society" to act like a cushion. They can not absorb all the force of nature completely. They do not have that capacity as a mass.

Consider the whole male and female worlds as masses of highly viscous fluids subjected to heat from outer periphery. You can not stop convection.

The principles of physics can not be wished away.

temporal,

Please talk about the specific stuff in the article.

I have broadened the model to include even patriarchy(the yellow zone) into it. I am even accepting asymmetry in violence equations between males and females here keeping my other theory aside (that females are as violent as males).

I have offered so many concessions to ideologues here and you are saying that I have to broaden it further.

"So, what did the tribes and societies do?

1) Boost his ego." etc..

And why do the tribes do that? Tribes want to make sure that their rajas will continue to play the role of power that has been played till now. If this family had a man who is feeling guilty about what we are talking about, he will not agree on putting that kind of pressure on his raja. To him a girl would be equally important.

Feeling guilty is not important. What is important is to recognize that my ladki is no less important than my raja. That is the paradigm we have to change. This paradigm is not changing beacuse not enough people are reconizing the need. This why they want to abort female fetus. It is exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting.

I agree there are cases where men get abused and society does not appropriately respond producing some undesirable results. But that does not take away the merits of those who argue that women have been held with less esteem. You are not suggesting that there is nothing wrong in the way we value man and woman. Are you?

If you were a white south african during aparatheid time, I am sure you would have felt a kind of guilt for what was happening to blacks at that time. And it is that kind of feeling that helped bring down the apartheid. As we evolve we create a kind of sensitivity to our environment and we try to do whatever we can to establish harmony. And that is the humane thing to do.

"I agree there are cases where men get abused and society does not appropriately respond producing some undesirable results."

Now, you would like to minimize this.

However, pushing men to red zone since childhood since ages in itself is a huge discrimination. The result is a low quality life for men compared to women.

No one is even ready to discuss that.

Boys are vulnerable, but are trained to suppress themselves. With guilt and discrimination in families, it will get worse.

==============
Female foeticide is also a function of that guilt and defensive behaviour of males.

The males (and females) think that females are victims and hence burdens. This is a major side effect of harmful policies followed using faulty patriarchal model.

If males believe that 70% of females are beaten, burnt, raped using simplified model, they have no motivation for having a girl.

In reality, both genders are victimised and discriminated in different ways, with males facing more social discrimination than females. This shows up in injury, disease and death statistics.

However, the simplified model makes people (men) believe that:

1) Girls are discriminated and are victims.

2) Boys to be taken for granted as they are powerful and they are not victims of system.

-----
So, on one side you have female foeticide.

On another side, you have terrorism, drug abuse and crimes.

The way out is for parents to recognize that:
=============================================

1) Boys are more vulnerable than girls.

2) Boys need more attention and sensitive handling than girls.

3) Girls are not victims or burdens.

4) Girls have less risks in life compared to boys.
-----

At present, the idiots are putting loud speakers to proclaim victimhood of girls.

Again, same vicious circle.

-------
Compensatory Models do not work in nature.
-------

I do not trust the jokers, who create cold war with 5000 nukes pointed at each other, followed by wars world over. These guys have screwed up a lot of policies in the world.

The same is happening in gender policies as well.

The two important conclusions here are:

1) There is absolutely no historical injustice against women by men.

2) Men did not have a great time compared to women historically.

3) Current models used for creating policies related to gender will not work.

They have failed miserably in US.

Women's situation has not changed much in US.

Women today in US are unhappier than their grandmothers (according to studies).

4) The male world needs to be cooled down. That requires sensitivity towards understanding men's problems in stead of further switching men's issues out.

Here is the key:

The easiest and most obvious solution to a complex problem is the worst solution of all.

Search for this in google:

"The easy way out usually leads back in."

The current models of "fixing" is actually making things worse after some initial positive results.

The side-effects dangerously out weigh the short term benefits. The compensation models are the worst models.

Very nice articles sumanth. You did a great job to expose the so-called "historical wrongs".

I always think about these. do we need to bother about this history. History is just a history nothing to do with the present. Even If men In previous generations really did some historical wrongs, why should I face the consequences In this generation?

I am not the one who did all these? The women of this generation are not the ones who suffered from these historical wrongs. Then how can they claim somethings or how can they blame us?

Is the truama of domestic violence or any other violence comes as inherent property for women? or the guilt of men of previous generations haunt men as a curse for many generations?

Worse still.....

some women are now converted into "NEW MEN" to fight in periphery, where as we do not just need so many men (also female MEN) in outer periphery.

The world can be cooled down with a bigger blue zone.

Bring back all men into or near to blue or yellow zone.

Guilt and anger has spilled over to courts now:

There has been a tendency to imprison men for every death of his spouse, even when he proves himself innocent with all evidences.

Even when a man has not done dowry demand, he is convicted of causing death by dowry demand. The excuse is that "there is female foeticide".

------------
NEW DELHI: Expressing a strong sense of anguish with the condition of women in Indian society, the Delhi High Court (HC) sentenced a man and his mother to life imprisonment in a dowry death case on Thursday even though the parents of the deceased claimed they didn't receive any dowry demand.

"Wrought with discrimination and prejudiced by rituals, society has dealt the girl child a rough hand starting even before her birth and ending with the dusk of her life. Amidst uproar of gender equality and law enforcement, female infants are found dumped in the trash, by the dozens and urban female foetuses continue to be sniffed in the womb," a bench of justices Pradeep Nandrajog and Suresh Kait have noted while hearing the dowry death case.
-----------

sumanth:

reading your diatribes (it seems) the whole world is against von siffers

any ideas on how to start from scratch?

perhaps

...a new judiciary, a new legislature with at least 30% to them 'orrible ones, a new police force, reforming the mind sets of billions....ah...did i miss out anything?...am sure you will continue to educate us

Temporal,

"any ideas on how to start from scratch?"

Now, you asked a very sensible question.

1) It has to start with a new science.

Social systems have to follow rigorous designs just like Engineering systems.

At present, it happens on intuition, propaganda and rhetoric. Such methods make the problems worse and create dangerous side effects.

People in high positions (everywhere) have gone crazy and does not know where their ass is.

Computer simulation of complex social processes is needed in stead of using rhetoric and cherry picking of statistics.

2) Full transparency and accountability by researchers, UN, US and policy makers.

At present, there is absolutely no scientific quality in research and studies conducted by UN.

3) In India, the entire system of Governance has failed with both breakdown in judiciary and bureaucracy.

Focus has to be shifted to Policy delivery mechanisms in stead of forcing new solutions/policies/laws on to a system, which has no capacity to execute or deliver things.

4) Sensitive handling of issues in stead of "wild swings" in policies to correct any situations.

5) May be closing down of UN.

That undemocratic organisation is fully fucked up and it is beyond repair.

God knows, what that guy Ban Ki Moon doing?

No one even knows his email address, phone or fax number. You can check his page.

Even United Nations website has no Contact Phone Number or fax number and it runs our lives, our policies and our future.

http://www.un.org/en/contactus

Why UN has to be so secretive? Its as if somebody trying to do "forced phone sex" with them.

We never trusted Indian courts or their quality of judgments.

Courts are supposed to give justice to people.

If a woman is dead, put the husband and his relatives in jail. Convict them, even when evidences point otherwise. No narco-analysis done even in any of these cases.

Dowry death not proved, HC upholds murder charge
==================================

New Delhi: Worried about the plight of women who are discriminated against, the Delhi high court has given life imprisonment to the husband and mother-in-law of a woman who was killed eight years ago.

Interestingly, the judges upheld the trial court verdict even after hearing that Pinky’s two children said she hadn’t been tortured by the accused and that there was no dowry demand on her. The high court said the children had “betrayed the love of their mother”.

They also rubbished Balbir’s defense that Pinky had committed suicide. Upholding the trial court’s verdict, the high court said a trial court can prosecute a person under a different section from what is given in the charge sheet.

On the testimony of Pinky’s parents and her children, who went against the prosecution case, the judges said, “The case highlights the unfortunate plight of a woman where the parents and siblings betrayed the love and trust reposed in them by the deceased by helping the wrongdoers go scot-free.”


http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_dowry-death-not-proved-hc-upholds-murder-charge_1358098

sumanth:

re: 21

briefly

ground realities are not tackled in vacuum chambers

Temporal,

The ground realities also show:

One married man commits suicide in every 9 minutes.

No one talked about it till we shouted for 4 years. Even today, no investigation is carried out when a married man commits suicide.

Because, men are considered disposable.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_one-married-man-commits-suicide-every-9-minutes_1350968

Even in US, the suicide rates of men/boys is 4 times more than women. That's ground reality.

How many programs or policies created to reduce suicides of men and boys in those countries?

This chart shows, how the suicide rate of Married Men in India is increasing compared to married women last 14 years (1995-2008)


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_jRW3UtQ33JU/S3ZcaI83wqI/AAAAAAAAAGk/N6RfmOaePgs/s1600/Suicide_chart.png

From 1995 to 2008:

Increase in suicides for married women: 5553
Increase in suicides for married men: 22349

------------
Lets put men in jail, if married woman commits suicide.

Lets, find excuses, if married man commits suicide.
------------

Who is finding it difficult to "stay alive"?
Men or Women?

and

Who is missing?

Are men going missing or are women are missing?

================
The Average life expectancy of men and women has to be almost same.

It is not, because men are pushed to red zone by the society run by other men who act with anger or guilt.
================

thanks sumanth

keep spitting at the sky

my point was simple...maybe too simple...re: crying hoarse in a vacuum

temporal,

Men have to feel guilty for "beauty myths" (and fairness creams), while ignoring their own deaths due to denial of services by the society.

Senate and House does not exist in Vacuum.

Men slept being happy with whatever small baits society threw at them ignoring all nonsense and are now in a full guilt trip.

Now, lets us make world equal for both genders by making "average Life Expectancies"equal.

And yet men dominate the world. Or perhaps we are not sure of that too.

yes

i like this temporary bout of lucidity:)

have been saying this for a long time

fair and equal for both

Does Men Dominate the World?

A Big NO and a small yes.
(A very small group of men have power over rest of men and women).


==========================================
Does Men have more POWER than women?
An absolute NO.
==========================================


If "ALL" Men Dominated the world, and men have more "Power" than women, then they would have less diseases, better life and higher life expectancy.

A train driver dominates 700 people in the train, whose lives depend on him. That does not make him powerful.

The so called dominance does not translate to more power because men mostly remain in red hot zone.

========I perfectly agree=========
when you say, fair and equal for both

However, the society does not allow a male child to cry once he becomes 7 because he has to go to red zone.

Where is fairness and equality?

It is not just a few men who dominate the world. Men wherever they are, they seem to be in control with a few exceptions here and there. Just look around.

"However, the society does not allow a male child to cry once he becomes 7 because he has to go to red zone."
Perhaps you are right. But that is what makes that child a fighter, a bully and he wants to dominate his environment. And dominate he does. We are not talking about who is at fault. We are talking about reality. I do'nt know what you mean by red zone. But if you mean by that a dangerous zone, then it is rightly so.

So you agree that men dominates his environment. Or do you?

Morris, by keeping men in that danger zone or Red Zone, the society harms everyone.

Men are more powerless than women.

With denial of civil rights and with increase in hate against men and demands from men across the world, men are further pushed into that red zone.

And Men are made further powerless.

See, here I am not talking about women(or feminists) discriminating men. I am talking about society discriminating men and keeping them powerless by denying their rights.

Then, the society blames men, when things go out of control.

Does it harm to society (now), if it does not suppress crying of boys after 7 years. If a boy cries till 11 or 15 years (like a girl), does it harm anyone?

Then, why is it not considered?

Why men are made numb (by society)?

Why male vulnerability is ignored?

I know, what most men told me, when I first raised the voice. They wanted to kill me and abuse my mother and sisters.

Even now, most men on one hand support women's empowerment, and on other hand same men call me a "m*****fu**er".

Can you explain that behaviour of most men?

They are sleep walking.

Men have not changed a bit. By being angry, and dipping themselves in river of guilt, they falsely assume that they have become enlightened to the concept of "equality".

They have not.

============
We organised a Seminar on Men's Rights in Mysore University. The permission was given by Vice Chancellor and the guests included prominent people.

Then, the vice chancellor and the guests were threatened by Women Organisations. That's the pattern. Men are not allowed to speak out about discrimination or powerlessness. But, they can murder and go to jail, and society is happy about it.

We conducted the Seminar successfully in any case.
============

If men dominates the environment, he does so like a madman dominates the street.

The madman going crazy is not powerful, yet he dominates the street.

The bull in a Spanish city dominates the street. Is it powerful? No. Because, it is going to die much earlier than the people whom it dominates.

======================================
Domination can not be equated to power.
======================================

The problem is:

The anger by women and the hate/guilty by men for other men is rising as the gaps in equality are reducing.

The evidences are everywhere for one to see.

So, men remained disposable in red zone and even now they remain the disposable gender.

=========
And thousands of years of conditioning and brainwashing has made men to enforce that "disposability" on to themselves.

Its like men brutally torturing themselves in Muslim festival Muharrum.

Men find it offensive, if any man does not want to be disposable.

Disposable cattle has no right to cry. so, starts with 7 year old kids....

Some of these 7 year olds are even trained for wars across the world...
=========

So, men are stuck and it is extremely uncomfortable for them to distinguish their "presently unwanted" self-defeating behaviour.


======
Women's empowerment need not be against men. But, its men (not women) who have made it like that to sustain "male disposability" and murder.
======

"men seem to be in control..."

Yeah...

They control and push other men/boys to dangers in red zone and make them disposable.

They are in control to emotionally castrate boys so that they can be made insensitive and numb to be pushed to dangers in red zone.

That's what was men's primary duty for thousands of years.

================
No boy wants to go to red zone.

When I was very small, I wanted to sit in a place and play with flowers like girls.

But, then the push came to go to red zone and be disposable, take care of women, children and elders, and I was coached to be a bodyguard to women who are 3 times my age and two times my weight.
================

I seemed to be in control at 10, when I was a body guard to a 30 year old woman.

Was I powerful? No.

Sumanth

"The bull in a Spanish city dominates the street. Is it powerful? No. Because, it is going to die much earlier than the people whom it dominates."

Even if you are right, that is no fault of a cow that he acts in a such a bully way. At least some of us are recognizing the need to bring cows in the decision making process so that they can change this insane behaviour of the bulls. You seem not to even recognize that. You seem to suggest that bulls should be given more power. With more power they will destroy themselves as well as cows.

this article cracked me up. yes! surely only men experience harsh weather. women live in a weather free zone. what in the world. sumanth, you live on your own planet where A + B = chocolate pudding. your logic has such giant holes I could drive a truck through them, but I am laughing too hard to drive.

PS, the fact that you put domestic violence in quotes is so telling.

Nice! I don't even know where to begin from. Let's just talk about "society" which "pushes" men to the so-called red zone. What IS society? Is it just made of women? Society IS the men and the women living in it. So, in addition to the women, it is also the men who are pushing men to the red zone, stopping boys from crying once they turn 7 (why &? Why not 6 or, say, 8?) Why do men get agitated when their sons want a play kitchen or a doll? MEN want their sons to act like men, not "society". Your article makes out the women to be the culprits in pushing the men to the red zone or in making them the way they are. Fact is, women couldn't make men do anything if the men themselves didn't want it.

And yes, if I tried to comment on the entire article, I'd have to write one giant post. Most important of all, you make a lot of assumptions about women which just conveniently fit your "facts". But I'd say you know zilch about women.

"MEN want their sons to act like men, not "society". "

Wow. What a logic?

Society is NOT = Men + Women.

The SUM is greater than its parts.

In fact, SUM is much Bigger than Parts. Because the addition of Men and Women is a "Nonlinear Addition due to high degree of Cohesiveness".

Who is pushing men in to the red zone?

Mostly the Society because of its selfish needs for survival.

This article explores men's transaction with society and "male disposability" since ages.

=======
Society is makes men numb to pain.

It says:
"Mard ko Dard Nahin Hota"
(men do not feel pain)

so that men can stay in red zone with dangers to serve the society.

==========
In the meanwhile, women raise hue and cry about discrimination due to some fairness cream they were forced to purchase and how they starved themselves to look like models.
==========

The increases in suicides of married men and married women are:

22000 for men and 5500 for women.

If left unchecked, it will skyrocket for men, and then it will increase murders of women.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_jRW3UtQ33JU/S3ZcaI83wqI/AAAAAAAAAGk/N6RfmOaePgs/s1600/Suicide_chart.png

=============
Cee Kay,

The research in this area is deliberately suppressed with rhetoric. But, the scientific truth is out in open.

It is men (not women) who are missing in millions of numbers across the world due to being forced to stay in red zone.
===

Are men the privileged class compared to women.

Answer is: No.

The anger in women and the guilt in men, makes them believe:

1)If Men's problems are by other men, then these men deserve it because males are a homogeneous privileged class.

2) Because men deserve it, the argument is made to deny men the civil rights, access to justice, access to free speech, research, or counseling services even when men pay most of the taxes in most countries.

=====================

I do not give a damn if women get 30% reservation or become astronauts like Kalpana Chawla to go to red zone. Women's Reservation in India will greatly enhance the power of men's rights movement in "Women Only Constituencies".

By the way, gay men can go to domestic violence shelters in US, but not heterosexual men.

Sumanth, nothing or no one can convince a conspiracy theorist that the sky is not falling. You can fit any statistics to fit any argument, that is the beauty of statistics. You can quote any amount of numbers but the fact is more women than men HAVE been oppressed for years. Are oppressed even now. The division of genders between the so called red and yellow zones happened more because of their physical and biological abilities and not because women were out to get the men or because the "society" was out to get them.

I absolutely do not understand how a society is not equal to men+women. What do you mean by "Nonlinear addition due to high degree of cohesiveness"? Please explain.

As I see it, no one is saying men deserve the problems that they face. Women are not "out to get men" for the wrongs done to them. The men I have met and gotten to know in all my years do not "feel guilty" for the atrocities done to women. Yes, atrocities were done. They cannot be undone by punishing the current generation of men for what the previous generations did. And the women I know do not thirst for men's blood for the wrongs done to their previous generations. I don't get why we need to attribute blames in order to improve the order of things.

Cee Kay,

Answer me: Are men privileged class? Do men have a better life compared to women?

When you want me to throw data out, that effectively means that you want science to be thrown out and intuition to be only considered.

Social problems are counter-intuitive.

===============
I absolutely do not understand how a society is not equal to men+women. What do you mean by "Nonlinear addition due to high degree of cohesiveness"?
===============

Cutting an elephant into two does not produce two baby elephants. In a society, men and women are not two separate homogeneous entities.

2+2 can be 20 due to non-linear addition.

Group behaviour is very different from addition of behaviour of individuals.

========
Inequalities exist due to pushing males to red zone. Inequalities will remain there if that push remains.

In Jurassic Park it is said,"Nature finds its own way".

The laws, policies and interventions on this Jurassic park, will not create equality, till people do not recognise the whole paradigm in which they are trapped and in stead keep fixing things here and there.

In the end, we will see the blame game going on for another 100 years with complete waste of human efforts.

If no man marries, everyone cohabitates and men create a vote bank, all the affirmative action will be over.

Its evolution and physical principles that govern the societies and nature.

A 5 to 6 years gap in life expectancy of men and women is not acceptable.

So,
Are men privileged class? Do men have a better life compared to women?

"And the women I know do not thirst for men's blood for the wrongs done to their previous generations."

No. They do.

It is both men and women who thirst for blood of males. That is why they deny men the right to justice and civil liberties.

Nice dignified men think, they will have more availability of sex if other men die or pushed to red zone.

A million lies are propagated across the world on victimhood of women. Both men and women did it, deliberately, while ignoring or minimising truth about males.

The result of that fucking noble effort is:

worsening of female foeticide in north India.

======
We are told, side effects will not come back to haunt.

Yes, They do.

Look at Afganistan. What the fools did there is 80s and 90s and how they are getting screwed royally.
========

Sumanth, I grew up seeing men and boys as privileged class around me. Who got first dibs on education, food, sports, freedom and even the TLC in most Indian homes? Males. You are trying to portray them as the martyrs because they went out to earn for their families (the red zone) while women stayed home (in the yellow zone). You gloss over the fact that women were not given a choice in the matter. Women were not (still are not, in many families) allowed to work outside of home. Girls are not allowed or encouraged to study to their fullest potential and make a career for themselves. For the longest time women were not allowed in the armed forces - at least not in combat zones or in positions that could bring them in the direct line of a conflict. Whatever the reasons behind those decisions might have been, they were taken by the males of the society. Girls were not allowed to opt for mining in engineering colleges even as recently as 20-25 years ago. Not because they couldn't handle it, but because the power-wielding, rule-making men of the society THOUGHT they couldn't.

As for the difference in the mortality rates of men and women you also have to account for the fact that today there ARE more men in India than women. There were 972 girls for every 1000 boys in the year 2001. Some states had ratios as low as 906 to 1000. There are fewer girls to begin with. So the argument that more men than women are dying, and therefore men are the ones being discriminated against, doesn't hold water for me.

The 5-6 years gap in life-expectancy of men and women can also be accounted for by their BIOLOGICAL differences instead of by the allegations that the poor men are being forced into stressful situations by the "society".

And I am curious - what (or who), according to you, IS the society made up of?

Just like some feminists take things to the extreme, you are taking them to the other extreme too, in my opinion. Most men and women just want to live together in the society peacefully without infringing upon each other's basic rights.

In reply to your comment at #42,

"It is both men and women who thirst for blood of males. That is why they deny men the right to justice and civil liberties.

Nice dignified men think, they will have more availability of sex if other men die or pushed to red zone."

LOL!! You make things sound/look so black and white. If only things were so simple :P

Oh and "A million lies are propagated across the world on victimhood of women. Both men and women did it, deliberately, while ignoring or minimising truth about males.

The result of that fucking noble effort is:

worsening of female foeticide in north India."

So, female foeticide is worsening in North India because MEN ARE BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST??? Wow!! Good logic.

As to why more men than women commit suicide, might be explained by this article: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/11/981112075159.htm

Female foeticide further increased in north India because mass propaganda is done that:

if you have a daughter, she will have 80% chance to get beaten, hit, slapped, burnt, raped in her life time.

and if you have a son, there is no danger as son grows up to a privileged man.

Cee Kay,

That science daily report completely validates what I am saying that men do not share and can not focus out of their problems and hence they get suicidal.

Men are made numb by society so that they can be pushed to the peripheral red zone.

They are conditioned not to share, cry or have emotional releases (by the society). This behaviour can be changed, when society stops making boys numb and gives them space to share.

However society will say:"Do not cry like a girl".

Suicide of men is completely doing of the society.
We feel it daily as the space to communicate is further limited with the excuses of violence on women (which is a complete different issue).

There are men who come to our session in cubbon park in Bangalore in weekend. Half of them cry, because we give them the space to communicate. They do not get that space anywhere else, not even in their own families or colleagues at work.

We are popular with thousands of members, because we listen to men and we do not judge at all.

There are men who had gone to NIMHANS mental health center at Bangalore for counseling, and then come to us and say, "wow. There is no comparison".

In fact, the funny part is, male psychiatrists from that center come to us for counseling.

The text books of social studies, psychological studies, law....all are manipulated to exclude men. Lawyers are not at all taught only how they can fight a lawsuit of a woman in family court. they just do not know the very valid arguments from men's side.

We have the best intellectual property and thousands of years of collective studies with us on men.

"Girls are not allowed or encouraged to study to their fullest potential and make a career for themselves. For the longest time women were not allowed in the armed forces - at least not in combat zones."

So, what you (just like a feminist) are saying is:

society conspired against women since thousands of years by not allowing them to go to red zone.

-----
The temporary privileges given to boys are like fattening up a pig for its slaughter.

You (like a usual feminist) will focus on a narrow widow of data and extrapolate it every where and then accuse me of doing the same.

Why the hell men have more diseases, more injuries, more suicides and less life expectancy if they have more privileged and power all through their lives?

Comes on....

I am not pulling this out of thin air. I am as good as or better than any famous original feminist leaders and I have high standings in men's rights movement in the world.

I do not invalidate all feminist concerns. The issues I raise are crucial to get a breakthrough. Otherwise, enjoy remaining stuck here for next 50 years.

Hillary Clinton is wrong when she says,"Human rights are women's rights" and children, elders and men do not deserve any human rights.

That's plainly stupid and chauvinistic rhetoric.

"Girls were not allowed to opt for mining in engineering colleges even as recently as 20-25 years ago. Not because they couldn't handle it, but because the power-wielding, rule-making men of the society THOUGHT they couldn't."

That's why I am saying that the feminist anger has gone too far.

You are saying it was a big conspiracy by men who happily went to periphery in red danger zone and did not allow women to come to red zone and kept them as slaves in relatively safer blue zone.

The "coal mine" is the red zone, so is a war.

So, men are blamed even for their sacrifices, as they risked injuries and death being miners and soldiers.

You are saying men conspired by not allowing women to make sacrifices and sustain injuries in mines, in war etc.

===============
Now, lets talk who have created this stupid conspiracy theory.
===============

Morris and Temporal, where are you guys?

Do you know we the male gender discriminated women by working as soldiers and miners, while we stopped them, when they wanted to join us.

We went for a hunting party 5000 years back and locked all women in a cave when they wanted to join the hunting fun.

Similarly, we also stopped them from being scientists, mathematicians, philosophers for thousands of years.
=============

So, lets go after the "evil" men now and make them commit mass suicide with guilt and self discrimination.

Cee Kay,

"Most men and women just want to live together in the society peacefully without infringing upon each other's basic rights."

Great thought.


Now, why United Nations and its departments funded by US tax payer's money is doing a false propaganda that 70% men are wife beaters in India?

Are not the people donating to UNICEF, when a buy a product or when they take a flight?

Why peaceful American people do not pull plug out of that dangerous organisation spreading gender war?

They can save a lot of tax payer's money.

Charities are camouflaged to spread gender hate and extremists have found it to be a safe pathway.

University books are doctored and the research is screwed up to create false theories to further narrow agendas.

The rate of murder of women in India is comparable or less than the rate in US.(US 3600 numbers and India 10,000 numbers per year. Indian men 27,000.)

Still, why US is considered safe for women and India unsafe?

=========================
Because the angry women and the guilt ridden men across the world need an outlet to express.
=========================

Mob justice and trial by media have become social norms in countries like India.

American universities give scholarships to conduct research to show how women in India are more oppressed than women in US by manufacturing fact statistics. Even Harvard shamelessly does that.

Everyone believe because it is Harvard paper published in reputed Lancet.

========
There are many protests in Indian cities against global funded Gender Extremists creating havoc in India.

Soon it will become a political movement and the effigies will be burnt in streets with videos uploaded to Youtube.
=======

Policies created by anger or guilt are short sighted and no one debates about the due to rhetoric and lack of open debate:

1) There is no National toll free Antidowry helpline in India. If no one complains, Government and legal system looks other way, to this violation of law.

2) Virtually no one gets punished for sex selective abortions in India.

3) False statistics on victimhood of women, stops people from preferring a girl child making the problem worse.

4) Problems like water, sanitation and maternal mortality do not get cured as the corrupt bureaucracy in India does not allow the benefits to reach the target audience.

5) In the meantime, anger and rhetoric in media and else where leads to jailing of half a million men and women people in section 498a alone, being considered guilty till proven innocent.

6) Men start committing suicide when they have marital problems as police gets involved, threatens and tortures them, and extorts money.

7) The gentlemen in society say,"That's not my problem" or claim,"all laws get misused, what's big deal if half a million got jailed without evidence".

8) Now, US senators want to fund 100 million to India to create another couple of laws in favour of women even though the current judiciary will take 350 years to dispose pending 30 million cases.

9) US is altruistic and it does not care, if its funded programs lead to "Civil Rights Violations".

US says, that's India's problem. We have great intentions, but we do not care if torture of innocent people or civil rights violations are justified by the agencies that we fund.

===========
It is all a massive western mess created in other countries.

When economy improves, then everyone's life will improve.
===========

Cee Kay....I am sorry to say, but You are hopeless..albeit predictable. if you are willing to know how, you will have to introspect.

Do you think others are that dumb that they have not already understood and dissected your "male: powerful, oppressive, cruel" and "female: weak, victim, compassionate" argument, which feminist have been parroting for last 50 years.

Even if you think low of MRAs, I mean do you really really think that your arguments about "males have always historically oppressed females" is a rocket science, and that MRAs are sub-human creatures who can not appreciate the depth of that eureka argument/idea.


All feminists have done in last 50 years, is write junk literature full of emotionally charged rhetorics, but devoid of even an iota of logic(or sense if I may say so). Any truth that can be attributed to what feminists have written is pure coincidental.

cee kay, don't bother. honestly. we've all tried to have an honest dialog with sumanth and his ilk, and it goes nowhere. they are blinded by their extremely narrow world view, and are programmed by their anger and hatred of women. they cannot see beyond it. There could be some truths scattered amongst the faulty logic, but it takes drinking their kool-aid to find them.

Go and read on the internet about what SIFF is about, and you hear men screaming about "women in jeans pants" and "men as ATMs" and such. At the end of the day, I think they just want women to shut up, stay quiet, do their bidding and dress appropriately. We should not speak, have opinions, work outside the home, ask for money, talk to their mothers, stress them out in any way, react to "pre-programmed" violence, think rape is an issue, and the list goes ad nauseum.

better to just let rabid dogs lie.

SS, thanks for the heads up. From now on I will treat these discussions as fiction and do what I do with any fiction: enjoy it :P

*dies laughing at FF's comment*

"male disposability" and deaths of men is considered fiction for society since ages.

What is so innovative about this world view ?

However, when men become terrorists or murderers, it does not feel like fiction.

When there are shootings in high schools and universities, that does not look like fiction.

Feminists have got the broader worldview.

"Human Rights are Women's Rights. Anybody other than women can get lose".

Somebody rightly coined the word "Feminazi" for them.

Is a war against men really necessary, while men are already pushed to dangerous outer fringes?

However, for feminazis, end is more important than the means.

They never talked about any debate anywhere because they are fascist.

United Nations does not debate on its Feminazi ideals. It does not even have its phone numbers or email address on its website.
=====

I wonder, what they aim to achieve out of this war. They have already got increase in female foeticide. Men have become commitmentphobic.

Women have become commodities. In Sweden Feminists are producing "Feminist Porn".

One out of 4 teenage girls in US have sexually transmitted diseases. Depression is widespread in western countries.

If social security and healthcare facilities are withdrawn, then there will be a catastrophe.

Nostrasifferitis: a condition of selective application of facts and non facts brewed with faux earnestness to confuse the opponents by setting up strawman arguments.

practioners are found in VonSifferland

treatment: marriage

Temporal,

A German friend told me,"we give poison as a wedding gift to men".

In India, for males getting married is like signing a paper to go to gas chamber (6 different courts) along with parents, brothers and sisters.

Divorces will approach 30% in next 15 years and every divorce will lead to 6 courts in different cities and it will take 10 year duration.

Guys and girls fly from one city to another to attend different courts even now.

The war is not completely one-sided. Men are well trained to fight in red zone. When a man fights back, the courts shake, the urban jean clad woman (in spite of all institutional support) goes through real hell and wears "salwar" in courts to get sympathy. Still she loses out badly.

Gender war is going to be painful for both. Men are used to pain, women are not.

sumanth:

re: A German friend told me...

i don't believe you...correction: one MORE reason why i find it hard to believe a word from you!

you are a mahatma!

they don't have 'friends'

;)

digression: the worst pain is the pain a human being suffers in child birth...no prizes for guessing the gender

I love how vonsifferland has phases in what they focus on. clearly now they had a meeting and the codephrase of the month is "red zone"

maybe next month will be "jeanspants" or "wifely duties"

whoops, typing error... first sentence should read: "I love how vonsifferland has phases that they focus on."

Even Killer Women get sympathy from men reeling under guilt.
===============================
Killer mom sympathy
OUR CORRESPONDENT

New Delhi, March 13: Delhi High Court has recommended government pardon for a mother who had strangled her baby after discovering she was a girl, ruling that “society had scripted her (the baby’s) obituary much before she was born”.

Justice Pradeep Nandrajog said the mother was as much a “victim of society” as her slain daughter, having grappled all her life with “illiteracy, poverty and social deprivation”.

Manju, the illiterate wife of a day labourer, had killed the yet-to-be-named baby the day she was born.

“She (the infant) was a baby girl and her arrival was a calamity. She… was a source of anxiety to her parents, for in her, they saw a difficult problem of her marriage,” Justice Nandrajog wrote in the judgment.

The judge dismissed Manju’s appeal against her life sentence but ordered a copy of the judgment sent to the secretary, Delhi law and justice ministry, with a covering letter asking the government to consider reducing the sentence or pardoning Manju on compassionate grounds.
============

Son preference runs in women's mind and yet men are blamed for it.

Sumanth

So which gender needs support emotional or other kind? It is obvious women are in need of support. You say they are killing each other. It does not matter who is at fault. You seem to agree that they are suffering. Therefore, you are argueing against yourself. That is what others are trying to tell you.

"So which gender needs support emotional or other kind? It is obvious women are in need of support."

Oh...

So, women need emotional support?

Why? Are they emotionally weak?

Is not it enough that men gave support to women remaining red zone for thousands of years?


"You seem to agree that they are suffering."

Who is suffering more?

It is men being in red zone are suffering more than women.

===============

Sumanth

You did not give an example of a man killing his daughter. That was a woman who did that. Imagine the trauma she suffered. How in the world the man suffered, when the woman who did that. And in all likelihood, it is the man's pressure that made her do that. From any angle you look at this, it is the woman who need the help. Red zone has nothing do with this one. And that is what the court also saw. No further argument. QED

"And in all likelihood, it is the man's pressure that made her do that."

Wow.....

So, you mean her husband forced the woman to kill her baby?

Why did not the high court investigate and punish the man then? I am certain the courts are competent enough in at least conducting the trial.

This is the exact problem that I am pointing at.

===========
It is well known in History that when women commit crimes, their husbands get punished. Even today, if a woman tortures her maid servant, her husband loses his job and gets punished.
===========

When women does any crime, the society and men automatically assume that there is some genuine reason behind her crime.

Even when a woman mows down couple of people after getting drunk, men jump in with sympathy.

Even female suicide bombers have to be sympathised and Nalini's death sentence has to be commuted.

The victim's own daughter meets the criminal in jail and shows sympathy to the murderer.

=========
If female murderers are murdering due to circumstances, then the same holds good for male murderers as well.

Let's talk equality.
=========

"Imagine the trauma she suffered."

Why will I imagine her trauma? She is a murderer.

Is the society imagining trauma of poor men dying doing dangerous jobs or protecting people?

For society, men can not have trauma or pain.

Here one guy says, "the worst pain in the pain of child birth".

Sorry, the worst pain is the pain of losing a limb in war or accident. The worst pain is getting tortured after capture in a war for a month before getting killed.

Women torture children more than men. More than 50% of Indian children are abused, out of which 21% are severely abused.

In US women are raping boys as young as 12 or 13.

Let's sympathise with criminals.

"such a feeble attempt to justify tyranny"

So, what is the solution to stop so called tyranny against women?

Deny men civil rights, democratic rights and murder them? Is not it?

===================================
The anger and hate is overflowing as the gender gap reduces.
===================================

You prove my point.

Sumanth:

"So, what is the solution to stop so called tyranny against women?"

elect von-siffers to positions of power perhaps?

Sumanth:

"You prove my point."

thanks! err umm, and your point is???

Commonsense,

You nicely tolerated all the feminist theories for decades, now tolerate masculist theories.

Sumanth:

"now tolerate masculist theories."

OK! must i tolerate strange spelling too? :)

Karl Marx, the ideological "father" of feminism and theory of patriarchy produced a child by having sex with maidservant.
============

The communist concept of equality greatly influenced the faulty feminist theories and applications.

Husband of Hillary Clinton went after Interns and she still shamelessly remains married to him.

Eleanor, Marx's youngest daughter, was emotionally crippled by the excessive dominance of her father's personality. "It is overmuch," she wrote, "to have Karl as my father. I do not have my own life." She did seem incapable of leading any sort of normal life, having inherited all her father's worst qualities and little of her mother's gentleness.
=======

Male Dominated Society? Yes Indeed, it is...
All Males are Dominated in this Society. Only difference is, they are conditioned to live in a state of denial, constantly brainwashed into feeling guilty of what their Great-Great-Fore-Father may or may not have done to the Women in their times!
Can someone tell me what do the Men Dominate on, today?

Blind anger and bigotry has denied civil liberties of half a million men and women.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZRQDU-uq98

What happens when law makers themselves advocate violation of civil liberties, being in anger or suffering from guilt?

Women are now fighting against this UNIFEM sponsored terrorism. Women are now fighting against the anger and madness for "positive discrimination" and denial of civil rights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4bo6572Wxc&feature=PlayList&p=EC826F003C73B434&index=3

Smallsquirrel,

"we've all tried to have an honest dialog with sumanth and his ilk, and it goes nowhere."

LOL, honest dialog? unbelieavable.

srikanth..there is no intellectually honest discussion I have ever missed out with any feminist. You know why?

...had...

Srikanth, when they do Honest Dialog with us to divert our attention, the morons in UNIFEM and UNDP will terrorize half of the country.

India does not have a social security or healthcare system. Old people are still dependent on young for their medical needs. No one is addressing that.

Their goal is: how to throw old people out of the house?

Men are more insecure about jobs or any health related emergency today. There is no proper health insurance system in place. There is no pension system in place.

Family system was working. UNIFEM and UNDP are screwing it as we wait for honest dialog.

UN does not even display its phone numbers or even email address. We are supposed to do honest dialog using telepathy.

Finally, I got email address of Husband of UNDP chief Helen Clark. I will fill his mailbox.


==========
The fucking problem with these people is that they do not understand that bad karma can come back to haunt them(even when they suffer in Afganistan and other place).
==========

...little....

News: Chinese Women Dance in Underwear to Find Mr.Right

And they held boards with slogans such as: 'Brother, marry me!', 'My mom is pushing me for marriage!', and 'Time flies, let's date!'.

Calling themselves the 'Crazy Beauties', the women said they had deliberately timed the event to coincide with International Women's Day.

Organiser Xing Zi said: "We planned this to stand as a declaration. This is to prove we have enough confidence and determination."

One participant, Xiao Xuan, explained: "We think we are beauties, but we can't find our Mr Rights. Our age is close to 30, so we have to do something."

Another dancer, with the nickname Ali Nerd, said her mother was driving her crazy: "She calls me all day long, nagging me to get married," she said.

The show attracted hundreds of people with many onlookers applauding the women and taking their pictures with mobile phones.

They braved the weather to strip down to their bras and pants outside a subway station in Guangzhou, capital of Guangdong province, and danced for passers-by.

The girls handed out sheets of paper with their personal details and the kind of men they hoped to marry, reports Guangzhou Daily.
===============
Men can choose to improve their lives by not marrying and not having kids in the over crowded planet. By working in flexible hours, they can improve their condition further.

That will lead to devaluation of female sexuality, which is now sold with such a high premium in India.

...little...

"Men can choose to improve their lives by not marrying and not having kids in the over crowded planet. By working in flexible hours, they can improve their condition further."

This is one thing on which I wholeheartedly agree with you, Sumanth. Marriage should not be a compulsion. Work on something that you are passionate about, eat, drink, be merry, do some social service, take care of your parents if you want to. There should be no compulsion to marry at all. Sometimes single life is really a happier life.

Cheers,
Ayan

its a true psychiatric cabaret in here.

Sumanth and Ayan:

"Marriage should not be a compulsion."

if there is any modern society where singlehood is illegal, particularly for men, i would like to hear more about it...

on second thoughts, forget about the above comment and please let this "psychiatric cabaret" and opera continue!!!

Sumanth,

on a serious note though...sorry i forgot what I was going to say...

Sumanth:

"Men can choose to improve their lives by not marrying and not having kids in the over crowded planet."

how about if they marry other men?

since many of your views can be traced to your bad marriage experience, have you considered the above option?

Commonsense,

Gays love feminists.

Marrying women today is as good as marrying men.

Commonsense,

Who told you I had a bad marriage experience?

I had a bad legal experience, bad police experience, discrimination and bad social experience etc.

Men should not marry, not because women are evil, but because of police, lawyers and social discrimination.

Kundu,

You are not missing anything. You just do not know where one important part of your "lower body" is.

It is a very natural condition of most men.

At least one Psychiatrist from NIMHANS, famous mental health center at Bangalore has come to me several times for counseling.

You or your wife will also come to me, when you get a false sexual harassment at workplace case on you or your family members go to jail for false dowry case.

The fact that you do not know me or what I do, shows you do not know where your "reverse mub" is.

kundu,

you need not to accept others views to write blogs. You can oppose their views. After all we write blogs to express our feelings or opinions not to accept others views. Still you are allowed to express your feelings or opinions.