http://desicritics.org/ Superior South Asian bloggers on Culture, Media, Politics, Sport, Business, and Technology. en Copyright 2006 by the authors Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:54:12 EDT http://backend.userland.com/rss BC custom software http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-341434 The Report on Orissa Violence is unfortunately one-sided and pro-proselytisation. The missionaries in Orissa are from abroad. They recruit converted South Indians to work as mercenary missionaries on payment. Many Christian families in South India live on the money their sons send from Orissa. Allegations of looting Mission funds are usual. Immorality in the Missions has often been revealed. The Orissa government has published details of the huge sums received from abroad by the Missions. http://www.orissa.gov.in/p%26c/ Proselytisation in Orissa is FDI or foreign investment. It is a multi-billion business. 341434@desicritics.org Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:54:12 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340986 #651 "We started with a high level of disparity distinctively on caste lines" I never opposed reservation. Yes affirmative action is very much required and that makes a dalit women Mayavati chief minister of largest state in India with help of so calles top cast Brahmins. AND THIS ALL HAPPENED WITHOUT MISSIONERY HELP OR CONVERSION TO CHRISTIANITY. Since 1000AD to 1735 India was ruled by Muslims. 1735 till 1947 by Christian invaders. Since 1947 by `Seculars'. They who caused that cast based parity? Hinduism has 4 varnas and not infinite casts. Even in cast system one community has monopoly on one profession. Even SC people engaged in leather bussiness has 100% control on that bussiness. There are scriptural evidence that Shudra used to be well to do people and it was just different spritual prescription for them due to their busy life style out of their mode of livelyhood. It might have recruitment policy of Muslim or British rulers in appointing certain cast as landlords and government officers. Therefore We are bearing the fruit of sins of the policies of Muslim and Bristih christian rulers in appointing landlords /govt officers and Hinduism has nothing to do with it in last 1000 years. "why do we have to see a lot of fun/hatred being poked at them?)." Kumar do research on every case of atrocities on dalits. In Every case it is landlords who torture the weaker section of society. landlords were appointed by foreign invaders. landlords poke and make mokery of Brahmins also many times. You can not bring even single evidence of torturing innocent dalits before Muslkim rule in India. Yes criminals were punihsed irrespective of community. And I can produce 100's of evidence to prove that dalits were treated nicely and enjoyed their rights of more then equality. Shabri in Ramayana, Satyawati in Mahabharat, Chandra Gupta maurya and Kadambri during Harsh's period. Therefore It is wrong to hang Brahmins or Hinduism for sins of Muslim or Christian invaders policy of landlordism. It were the landlords appointed by foreign invaders who tortured dalits and Hinduism has nothing to do with it. Of course some greedy priests also associated with landlords in that sinister acts. Rising of Dalit power with help of Bramins is proving my point Kumar. As power of landlords is diminishing accordingly atrocities on dalits also fading away. So real culprits are namakharam and gaddar landlords appointed by invaders and not hinduism. "Why do you think there is a force/duress used?" I have evidence of that. I have seen people myself trapped and threated at age of 58 either to convert or get terminated from position of principal of a christian school at time he has to build house and need money badly for his daughters marriage. A christian personal secreteary of Vice Chancelor of Roorkee university used to tell us that they are called `Rice christians' because his forfathers were given a plate of rice only when they accepted to become christians. You can google what r rice christians. many more.. " There is nothing arrogant in holding to a particular doctrine and articulating it." something that can not be cross verified is nothing but superstition. Therefore those who never saw God and preaching about God are thugs and need to be stopped. Such people are nothing but conmen and need to be banned. Those who preach a cross verifiable way to reach God are the only deserving people. Why falsehood should be allowed? Criteria of truthfulness of any religion or ideology is its cross verifiability by scientific means. People can practise whatever they like in personal ways. But preaching of scientifically unproven things should be banned. Why not? Why a unproven medicine should be allowed to be advertised? "To begin-with, equating those who provide education, health-care and dignity to dalits/tribals as "decoits" is your wild imagination and allegation" What's the difference? Dacoits attack with weapons and loot wealth of innocnt and weak villagers. Missioneries attack with money power pretending to be `doing charity' though having crooked agenmda of looting the faith of the people. Weapons are different, looted material is different. But I respect dacoits more then conmen as dacoits are courageuous people at least doing openly whatever they intend to do. Missioneries are worst then dacoits as they pretend to be `servants of God' and in reality their mind is focussed on converting people. Crooks are worst then dacoits Kumar. dacoits are visible enemies of villagers and can be managed. Missioneries are crooked enemies hiding under burqa of freindhsip and charity. They have polluted even the noble act of selfless service. I am sure is God has some reasonable way of punishing people, missionereis will never get a place even in hell forget about the heaven emotional exploitation of innocent, illteral weak and poor tribals is worst kind sin they are committing. They are befooling even God. True social service should be done without expecting anything in return from the recipient. Otherwise it becomes a debased and at best can have an accidental redeeming value. If the motive is bad, then the social service has no real merit. There are many organizations that are doing noble service without expecting anything in return. And in offering such services, the Hindus are very actively involved. During his meetings with the Christian missionaries, Mahatma Gandhi had said that they are doing social service with the ulterior motive of conversions. He asked them to give up this offensive program. He also said to them that if this situation continued in a free India he would ask the foreign missionaries to leave the country. All in all, Christian Missionaries will not hesitate to distort, deceive and defame others in order to propagate their religion. Their devious tactics break every fundamental rule or human benevolence. Instead Missionaries often bring out the worst of humankind. 340986@desicritics.org Fri, 5 Sep 2008 20:12:41 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340940 "I know many people who are dalits/backwards who never had any access to education, healthcare etc for generations who had for the first time got decent education due to Christian organizations" How ironical that you make such a statement. The OBCs in Khandamal converted to christianity and and yet ask for reservations. :-). The whole conflict with the tribals is related to reservations. Additionally, the converted BCs do everything possible to harass the tribals because they think they are superior beings of higher caste and having adapted a western religion. 340940@desicritics.org Fri, 5 Sep 2008 06:27:55 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340937 Kerty If you read my previous comment to Kumar, you will notice that missionaries educate only 3% of eligible students at any time. This is in line with christian population in India. Their contribution to healthcare is even lesser. Therefore it is a myth that missionaries are doing outstanding work for the nation. 340937@desicritics.org Fri, 5 Sep 2008 06:20:52 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340909 Kumar "I know many people who are dalits/backwards who never had any access to education, healthcare etc for generations who had for the first time got decent education due to Christian organizations." Why is that a responsibility of xian organizations and not state? Are they trying to cover up the failures of secular state? And why do xian organizations have so much love for Dalits, BC and tribals, and why not for remaining Hindus? Why do religious-right that (they fund missionaries) decry public education/healthcare for ALL and welfare programs for poor in their own country but are so enamored by education and welfare of the left-out people in their 'mission' counties? Or is that these missionaries feel the onus of sustaining government/political model left by British and education system devised by Maucaley now rests squarely on them - they see themselves as heir-apparent of colonial masters? xians were only tiny in % who ruled India than and they still shape political discourse in India. Ie. If missionaries want India to do x, they will launch it on a small scale in some area, the Hindu organizations will follow suit on massive scale in order to preempt missionaries from taking undue advantage for conversions, and secular government will follow suit as it can not let communal forces gain undue advantage - thus mission accomplished - missionaries now have both Hindus and secular government vying to do whatever Missionaries want India to do. All the while pretending to be doing only self-less seva work. 340909@desicritics.org Thu, 4 Sep 2008 17:09:26 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340906 Chandra Why have our secular government outsourced education and the care of poor and sick to missionaries? What kind of nexus both have created to scratch each other's back? Isn't outsourcing of government's roles to missionaries an admission of failure of secular state to look after its citizens? Why should it not raise eyebrows? Sangh Parivar organiations do many-fold more charity projects around India - but they seldom get recognition for their humanitarian work - in stead, their work is scrutinized for their hidden agenda, and they are demonized on that ground, overlooking all the good things they do. On the other hand, missionaries do all their work for hidden agenda of harvesting souls for xianization, like they have done in Latin America, Mexico, Phillipines, East Timor, Australia etc - none of them appeared to be saved by conversions. Yet, we must not scrutinize missionaries for their nefarious agenda - they have to be deified and glorified for their humanitarian work. You can see entire secular media and political establishment play this game of double-standards. Is it true that missionaries have created a hotbed of maoists in the troubled region in Orissa? Do maoists and xians come from same group of people? Is that why tribals who are angry do not see any distinction between maoists and xians there? 340906@desicritics.org Thu, 4 Sep 2008 16:04:40 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340901 Kumar The idea that missionaries are somehow making an impact on education and healthcare is a pack of lies. The number of students who go to missionary schools and hospitals is lesser than 3% of the population, in line with the proportion of christians in the population. The irony is that some of the nation's elitest schools and non-technical colleges are christian. Why do religious folks run such Elite institutions? Why not run colleges and schools for the poor tribals who they convert. The second lie is that somehow christian converts are better off than those of other religions. If that was true, can you explain why missionaries are in the forefront of demanding reservations for christian converts. Missionary activity is like drugs, it is nice in the short run, it will kill you in the long run. 340901@desicritics.org Thu, 4 Sep 2008 14:52:41 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340885 Chandra (#652) >> It appears that you are siding with nut case missionaries Only to the extent they are legitimate. I know many people who are dalits/backwards who never had any access to education, healthcare etc for generations who had for the first time got decent education due to Christian organizations. There is no evidence of any use of force, blackmail etc. All them will testify to it. One cannot blame merely on imagined allegations. Neither law nor ethics work that way. >> Unlike muslims, who are in sizeable numbers, christians will be wiped out in two days time. Is that the pits of immorality/evil that some people have descended to? There are millions of people across the country who have received education, health care, relief work etc and they all acknowledge there is no force, blackmail etc. When all real evidence points to the contrary, why should one go by mere allegations? If the Christian organizations have asked for change of faith in to get their education, healthcare, relief work etc theye should have been much more numbers than can be wiped out in a day? And of the millions, there should be a significant number who will testify before courts about organizations who forced them or blackmailed them to change their religion? Even if the VHP leader was killed by alleged christian elements, it is still a one-off case. We still to wait to find out what actually happened. There are no known Christian organizations who believe/engage in rioting/burning people alive/destruction of property etc. while the VHP/Bajrangdal engages in these all the time. What balance are you talking about? 340885@desicritics.org Thu, 4 Sep 2008 06:27:57 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340880 Kumar-650 Well Kumar, It appears that you are siding with nut case missionaries. Your assessment is not neutral at all. However, as you would realise, as missionaries increase the level of fraud, violence and murder, the hindu backlash will be even stronger. Unlike muslims, who are in sizeable numbers, christians will be wiped out in two days time. People like you will then have to take responsibility for being so one sided in your approach. What a shame! 340880@desicritics.org Thu, 4 Sep 2008 02:57:26 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340858 Man Singh (#648) >> Cast based reservation is keeping cast alive. We started with a high level of disparity distinctively on caste lines - with some castes/social groups having very high level education, jobs, socio-educations-economic status etc for generations, with some others at nearly 0% in these. Reservations were introduced to bring some sanity to this lop-sidedness. Hindu society would have been a lot more divided without these affirmative measures. >> Hindusim has nothing to do with nonsense. May be it is, may be it is not. That is a religious point of debate. But at a social level, a genuine reaching out has to happen. There should be a genuine effort to bring in genuine egalitarianism to remove the upper caste, Brahmin, lower caste, dalit etc social distinctions/grading of humans (even while some of them had to make use of reservations - why do we have to see a lot of fun/hatred being poked at them?). >> This is where money and muscle comes in to the picture .. Attempted conversion is a mental duress on economically and/intellectuall weaker people ... When my house is being invaded by dacoits, when a women is being raped by criminals You are merely assuming and imagining things here. Why do you think there is a force/duress used? Millions have made use of the relief work, educational and other services rendered by religious organizations without changing their religion and without complaints of any duress. In the specific context of dalit conversions, it is not hard to imagine why they happen. They think that for generations they have faced atrocities, untouchability, inhuman treatment, deprivation, lack of dignity etc in the name of religion and when they finally got education, health-care, dignity etc they are naturally inclined towards the ideas/doctrines who gave them that dignity. It is easy to allege ulterior motives to any social work. If some people thinks that these conversions are unfair, the only legitimate way to deal with it to reach out to the dalits with equal or more genuineness. The assumptions/allegations you are making border on being paranoid. No one is above the law. There are hardly any cases at all on the missionaries, while it is the VHP that is giving headache to the police/law. >> It is nothing but arrogance and ignorance. Those who never saw God have no right to proclaim such things. True that none of the philosophers or religious leaders etc may have seen God (but dont be so sure, some of them even claim seeing God and some of them claim to be god-men, incarnations of God etc). There is nothing arrogant in holding to a particular doctrine and articulating it. You yourself have done that. Does it mean that you are claiming that your religious doctrine of creation etc is 'superior' and others as 'inferior'? Not necessarily. You have a view and you are expressing it, but whether you explicitly state it or not, you are implying that others who have a contradictory view are wrong. Nothing wrong in that. It is a natural process in the field of religion/philosophy. >> When dacoits attack innocent people, immediate thing they will do is beat them back and then put an FIR To begin-with, equating those who provide education, health-care and dignity to dalits/tribals as "decoits" is your wild imagination and allegation that borders on paranoia. While I understand the 'sentiment' involved, we cannot take law into own hands and introduce mob culture, barbarism, thuggery, rioting, burning people etc. 340858@desicritics.org Wed, 3 Sep 2008 19:36:48 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340857 Chandra (#646) >> The fundamental point remains that Christian missionaries repeatedly state that their religion is superior to any others and naturally, Hindu nuts woudl challenge that Every religion needs to be challenged (regardless of whether anyone explicitly claims it to be 'superior' or not). However, that should not be by taking law into own hands, using riots/violence/burning people alive etc. It should be by proclamation and articulation of ideas. >> Throw out these missionaries, ban the hindu nut cases.. No need of either. It is the use of mob violence, rioting, burning etc that is the problem. The organizations that kill/riot/burn innocents need to be banned. 340857@desicritics.org Wed, 3 Sep 2008 19:01:43 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340849 we should not mistake missioneries by considering them simply as `religious preachers'. They are associates of colonial powers serving their interest in post colonial era. That's the reason even ULFA terrorists get treatment in christain medical colleges and christian goonda wear a Maoist burqa to confus e the people. Many civilisations has been uprooted from face of this earth by these missioneris. Those countries today have lost their wealth their civilisations their religions and their cultures and has become just puppets of imperialists. Phillippine, South Korea, Africana dn South American countries are examples. East Timur is latest example of Missiomnries activities where conversion caused separatism and Australian Army back the missionries to take over power and disintegrate Indonesia. They will do in India the same thing oneday. Indians better wake up before its too late. 340849@desicritics.org Wed, 3 Sep 2008 16:41:40 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340848 #641 "eternally branded a 'lower caste' or a 'dalit' and so on. There is no wholesale rejection of casteism yet." This is exactly what associates of imperialists propagate. Cast based reservation is keeping cast alive. Hindusim has nothing to do with nonsense. Hindusim classifies humanity in to 4 varnas not casts to prescribe them a optimum way to reach God based on `natural instincts' Bhagwadgeeta Chapter 18 shlokas 45 to 56 very clearly explains. Still if some people stick Adharma things to Dharma either they are fools or crooks. "It is upto them. It is a right to preach religion - one may use it or not." This is where money and muscle comes in to the picture. Attempted conversion is a mental duress on economically and/intellectuall weaker people. Trading their faith for moeny or terror are unethical in its essence and leads to destruction of civilisations of poor/weaker people. Missionreis are associates of Imperialist and colonialists in the guise of religion and deserve to be treated accodingly. In a multicultural society intereference in others religion will definitely lead to comflicts and hence conversion activities using money muscle and women need to be stopped as it is unethical. At least religious people should not indulge in such nonsense. "a sincere guru can seek to proclaim his message to everyone. There is nothing wrong." Yes Gurus associated with money muscle and marriage have vested interests and causing detah to many civilisations. Missioneries funded by imperialists money are invaders to the country and desrve to be treated accordingly as people at `war on India'. they are not merely religious preachers. They are trading faith fro money. and its is definitely wrong. "That is just a subjective assumption on your part that it is possible to 'buy' faith. Why does not the VHP prove it in a court and get the missionaries who do it arrested?" When my house is being invaded by dacoits, when a women is being raped by criminals, first thing I will do is to beat back the dacoits and then call police. Pressure of imperialist countries has made our government impotent to take any action against missionery gangs and hence natives around the globe have been left no choice but to beat them back. It is surpising that you advising the victims to be calm in place advising culprits to stop their nonsense of conversion. Nobody is stopping them practising their religion. "It is the intolerant people who do not like freedom of religion " It is a blatant lie. Freedom to stay in my house doesn mean the freedom to loot my house. Missioneries are allowed to practise their religion not to convert natives and destroy their values using money and muscle. Therefore evangelists are the one who can not tolerate others that's why they are involved in destruction of other religions. "The single largest step is to learn tolerance and freedom of religion." A person who is tolerant to other faiths will never involve in faith trading. Hence missionery activitie are single most intolerant acts. Natives are simply trying to defend their way of life culture and religion from clutches of vultrous missioneries. Yes there are many other causes of conflicts and can be discuused separately. Here religious violence is the issue and interefernce in other religious by misisoneries is teh main cause of conflict all over the globe. Missionreis are associates of foreign invaders and still active to serve coloniali interests even after indepnednece. That's why USA and Italy starts crying when missioneris are touched. same USA and Itli keeps quite when a 85 year old swami is brutally murdered by Christian gundas. Definitely USA/Itali's reaction is not humanistic. It is selfish imperialistic motive. " eternally tagged as a dalit or a 'lower' caste?" who tagged them eternally dalits? It was social system developed in last 1000 years by landlords appointed by foreign invaders. Hindu scriptures never tagged anyone by anything. They simply ask a human to recognise their natural instincts and follow a spritual path suitable for people of that type of instincts just to optimise their spritual journey. Still Lord Krsihna says to Arjuna in Chapter 18 shloka 63 O Arjuna I told you all paths of salvation. Now you are free to follow it or not. "One has a right to say that `Jesus is the only way' or `truth is only in Islam' or 'Advaita is the highest truth' etc. One has a right to proclaim it, preach it, write books on it etc." No. It is nothing but arrogance and ignorance. Those who never saw God have no right to proclaim such things. If their proclaimations can not be cross verified using scientific means, their claims are to be considered as lies and they should be booked under article 420 of crimianl panel code. They are simply spreading lies and causing conflict in society. If Government doesn not take any action under pressure of colonial powers, natives will be left with no choice but to whateever they feel approriate to defend their values and dignity. When dacoits attack innocent people, immediate thing they will do is beat them back and then put an FIR. For theor cracies they may be fine. For a multicultural democracy such nonsense has to be banned otherwise humanity will keep on suffering at the hands of such hate mongers. 340848@desicritics.org Wed, 3 Sep 2008 16:36:05 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340823 Chandra: ""Let religion remain in the homes and in religious places like Temples, Mosques or Churches."" Taaliyans galore!! 340823@desicritics.org Wed, 3 Sep 2008 09:51:35 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340794 Karan Thapar is a sane voice? :-). Look at the way he interviews people. His research is faulty. He does not understand the issue of BCs and tribals in Oriss and its relationship with the current religious violence I think the silent majority of Indians donot approve of either the hocus pocus conversions or the violence of the Hindu right. The so called 'silent' majority donot agree with Karan Thapar. The fundamental point remains that Christian missionaries repeatedly state that their religion is superior to any others and naturally, Hindu nuts woudl challenge that. Throw out these missionaries, ban the hindu nut cases, India will be a better place. Let religion remain in the homes and in religious places like Temples, Mosques or Churches. However, let us not fall for minority worshipping like Mr Thapar wishes to do. We Indians 'hopefully' have more self respect than that. 340794@desicritics.org Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:17:42 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340730 Kumar, I am shocked that you are relying on the brainwashed secular/leftist media people who will leave no stone unturned to be anti-Hindu and to give aid and comfort to our sworn enemies....oops, my so-called brains were temporarily hijacked by the kerty-desh-mansingh combine while I was shopping for new clothes to cover my exposed butt. 340730@desicritics.org Mon, 1 Sep 2008 19:01:39 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340727 Some sane voices (articel by Karan Thapar): http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=&id=de847806-8ec0-4ed2-aff5-e9317f5539d3&&Headline=Who%e2%80%99s+the+real+Hindu%3f&strParent=strParentID "I therefore believe the time has come for the silent majority of Hindus — both those who ardently practice their faith as well as those who were born into it but may not be overtly religious or devout — to speak out. We cannot accept the desecration of churches, the burning to death of innocent caretakers of orphanages, the storming of Christian and Muslim hamlets even if these acts are allegedly done in defence of our faith. Indeed, they do not defend but shame Hinduism. That's my central point" 340727@desicritics.org Mon, 1 Sep 2008 16:58:34 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340719 #638 >> Does Right to propogate include right to convert others? That is like asking, 'Does the right to express/progagate a opinion include the right to let others accept that opinion'. This is what is called 'defending the indefensible'. Let use see that Kanchan writes in his article. >> intellectuals and politicians who insist that secularism means denial of Hindu rights No one said that. It is Kanchan's own interpretation and twist. Secular humanists support the right of all religions/cultures/traditions. The hindu religious places, festivals etc (of all religions, castes) thrived in India under secular humanist constitution. >> in defence of religious conversions through deceit, allurement and coercion. Again, it is Kanchan's subjective assumption that a religious conversion necessarily involves deceit, allurement and coercion. He needs to make such an erroneous assumption in his wearisome attempt to defend the indefensible. One may freely choose a religion without deceit/allurement/coercion and that is the basic human right which the humanists defend. >> violence cannot, indeed, must not, be the response to the most provocative of black deeds. The 'black deeds' is again a subjective assertion that has no value in a court of law. If there is evidence, it can presented in a court of law and the culprits can be booked/shamed. That the VHP instead indulges in violence using its own goons without taking it to courts tells the whole story. >> huge hue and cry over violence against evangelists in BJP-ruled Rajasthan. >> The Government of Rajasthan, following street protests against the book, scrutinised its contents and decided to ban it to prevent the eruption of violence.. While I have not read the stated book, it is a fact that there are several books banned in India for allegedly hurting religious sentiments and if there is objectionable language, this one can be banned too. There are countries in this world which can tolerate such writings, but that is a different matter. In any case, this does not call for violence by mobs, taking law into their hands. Why can't the response be a counter book challenging what is stated in that book? The simple fact of the matter is that the communalists cannot tolerate freedom of religion and want to indulge in violence/arson (with or without any 'controversial' book). 340719@desicritics.org Mon, 1 Sep 2008 13:52:33 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340716 Kumar, you are brave, taking no Man Singh and Kerty! But somebody's got to inject some rationality, a thankless task though it is. The important thing is that there are other readers too. More power to you! 340716@desicritics.org Mon, 1 Sep 2008 13:08:56 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340714 Man Singh (#622) >> I quoted so many times that Dharma is the solution for all interreligious problems as Dharma : 1. Identifies humans based on their character and not based on way of worship. Humanist democracy also identifies the inherent value/rights of all human beings. On the other hand, there are those who see a problem with the version of hindu dharma in which one is eternally branded a 'lower caste' or a 'dalit' and so on. There is no wholesale rejection of casteism yet. >> 2. Dharma accepts many ways to to reach higher level of human evolution as described in Vedas and Bhagwadgeeta. You are free to believe in the Vedas/Bhagwadgeeta. Others are free to believe in other Scriptures, religious figures etc. >> 3. Dharmic people do not get involved in nonsense of religious conversion. It is upto them. It is a right to preach religion – one may use it or not. There are many hindu gurus all over the US and many parts of the world and there is nothing wrong in that. >> Sincere seekers go to Gurus for enlightenment and not Gurus rushing A sincere seeker looks to a guru and a sincere guru can seek to proclaim his message to everyone. There is nothing wrong. >> to weak and poor sections of society with gifts of money and material to buy their faith That is just a subjective assumption on your part that it is possible to 'buy' faith. Why does not the VHP prove it in a court and get the missionaries who do it arrested? Instead of indulging in illegal activities like rioting, murder etc >> Inteference in others religion is the root cause of conflicts It is the intolerant people who do not like freedom of religion who create the 'conflict' and take law into their own hands and illegitimately indulge in riots, murder, destruction of property etc. >> stop interfering in affairs of other religions it will be single largest step in establishing peace and harmony between different religious groups. The single largest step is to learn tolerance and freedom of religion. An inter-caste marriage also can create conflict. But the solution is not to ban inter-caste marriage, but to learn/evolve/mature into egalitarianism, broad-mindedness and tolerance. >> Truth is that Muslims and christians are fed with haterd since their childhood towards idolators ie Hindus .. Many religions/groups including some hindu groups reject idol worship, but that is not necessarily the same as 'hatred towards idolators'. To reject idolatry as part of a religious tenet is a right. To hate idolators is a crime and is a charge that needs to be proved on an individual basis. It is like saying that brahmins are fed with hatred towards dalits. May be more true in the past then now, but it is a charge that needs to be proven on a case to case basis. >> Natives on the other hand love their original culture It is up to each individual what they want to love and what they want to reject. What if a dalit or a lower caste person says that they do not like being eternally tagged as a dalit or a 'lower' caste? Is that not why Ambedkar converted? No one has the right to question it. >> This attutude of `all paths are true' will create harmony among various religious groups opposite to arrogant and hateful attitude of `Jesus is the only way' or `truth is only in Islam' One has a right to say that `Jesus is the only way' or `truth is only in Islam' or 'Advaita is the highest truth' etc. One has a right to proclaim it, preach it, write books on it etc. That is a personal religious belief that does not violate the law/constitution. 340714@desicritics.org Mon, 1 Sep 2008 12:56:39 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340712 kerty (#615) Let us first assert the basics. The world (and India) is multi-religious, multi-cultural, multi-traditional. The rule of law should not be based on any religion/culture/tradition, but on objective assessment of what is a good law/constitution for sustaining the human rights/freedom/welfare of all citizens. That is what we call secular humanism. The individuals have freedom of religion/culture/tradition. >> how would secular humanists deal with growth of intolerant Jehadism in their perfect secular humanist paradise. Firstly, need to define "intolerant Jehadism". If a muslim believes in Muhammad as prophet and believes/practices the tenets of islam like monotheism, charity/zakat, Namaz, Hajj etc and proclaims his beliefs, I do not see it as 'intolerant', though the belief is essentially means that the Quran is the 'only' reliable message of God while others are not. That is their personal belief and the others have their beliefs (some of which may reject Muhammad altogether). Ordinary muslims define Jihad as internal struggle against sin etc and no one needs to have any problem with such a definition. The problematic defintion of "intolerant Jehadism" is one that involves use of armed Jihad to establish islamic theocracy (overthrowing rule of law based on humanism). I will assume that this is what you mean by 'intolerant Jihad'. >> By blocking laws and policies that can deal with Jehadists? No. Use of army, police, law, even special laws etc needs to be used against the Jehadists as defined above. However law-biding muslims have the same rights as any other citizens. >> By corrupting the public discourse by obscuficating those who are concerned about Jehadism and trying to checkmate the threat to be communalists and those who are trying to promote, appease and defend jehadis to be secular humanists? All law-abiding citizens are concerned about Jihadism (as defined above). However, some use it as a vehicle to promote their communal hatred to violate the rights/dignity of all Muslims (which is as bad as jihadism itself). Others do not. In fact justice/truth/fairness is an important aspect of fighting terrorists. Terrorists use the injustices against the community as a primary means of making recruits. It is foolhardy to assume that terrorism can be handled by mindlessly using ruthless laws against a community. That can be counter-productive. The support of all law-abiding citizens including muslims/hindus/christians is important in the fight against terrorism. >> How would you ban a political party for receiving the votes of jehadi votebanks without such action being branded as Fascist and anti-democracy Nazism? A political party is supposed to do what is right/just. You need to define what a 'jehadi votebank' is. Seeking votes of the basis of the party's just/fair treatment of all innocent citizens is perfectly legitimate. All citizens of all religions/castes are supposed to vote on such a basis. >> How would you ban political parties that do not make outright call for speratism, but lend only moral support to people who take up such agitation - would you not be branded as nationalist? There is some amount of spectrum of ideologies that are allowed in a democracy. Some of them may be borderline cases. There are parties that are so leftist that almost borders on supporting naxals. There are political parties that support communal violence/riots etc. The demolition of babri masjid is outright illegal, but the party that did it is allowed to function. The shiv sena openly indulge in killing north-indians etc. But if there is good enough case with evidence, the case can be taken up with courts and election commission for possible de-recognition. >> How would you deal with demand to have parallel laws based on Islam - and if you resist such demands, be branded as a majority fundamentalist against religious freedom of minority? The leaders of the community have requested for some provisions that are important in their religious tradition (related to marriage, inheritance etc). Even the hindu inheritance law has gone through changes. The constitution made some accommodation for it stating the ultimate goal for reform and towards uniform civil code. Many of the hindu social reforms took their time and the state may choose to take up things in a step-by-step manner. >> You know that there is no such thing as overthrowing secular laws or constitution - one simply amends them to suit the Jehadis Anything that promotes humanism needs to be be supported. Anything that diminishes humanism needs to be opposed. It is not as if every political party that claims to be secular is a saint. If a self-claimed secular party deviates from this pronciple, they are on the wrong. >> You said that you would not act pro-actively on mere possibility that Jehadis might do something terrible in future, and I am not sure you can do it after the fact either. What I said is that one cannot take action on a law-abiding citizen on an assumption that he may become a terrorist/illegal in the future. The constant endeavor is to do what is right and ideologically defeat the anti-humanist ideologies like fascism/communalism/theocracies. >> I give you all the leeway to handle Jehadism in your secular Humanist Paradise - kindly educate us how a secular humanist would deal with it. By ideologically defeating all anti-humanist ideologies; taking the support of all law-abiding citizens of all communities; using police, army, law (even special laws against terrorism if it helps strategically) etc against the violators of the law; promoting the welfare of all communities with good education, jobs, healthcare and development. 340712@desicritics.org Mon, 1 Sep 2008 12:19:43 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340665 What is Behind Orissa Clashes: Article: Swami Laxmanananda: murder foretold http://www.vijayvaani.com/article_30au2.htm 340665@desicritics.org Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:58:00 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340656 Does Right to propogate include right to convert others? Article by Kanchan Gupta http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=kanchan%2Fkanchan195%2Etxt&writer=kanchan 340656@desicritics.org Sun, 31 Aug 2008 00:47:50 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340653 Man Singh boss, did you ever see the movie _Fakira_ with Shashi Kapoor and Zeenat Aman (no relative of Aaman Lamba here at DC). There is a nice song in this movie: Tota Maina ki Kahanee Hai Puranee, Puranee Ho Gaiyee Aye merey humsafar Huaa aisaa asar Main faqirey ki ranee Ho gayeee! You remind me of this movie whenever you repeat your childish story about some villagers beating those alleged dacoits back. 340653@desicritics.org Sat, 30 Aug 2008 22:59:37 EDT http://desicritics.org/2007/12/27/002212.php#comment-340626 Kerty: #626: [Big time Conjecture, but NOT BAITING alert!) ""MS Can you tell us how Hindus were able to create and manage so much diversity in every sphere and every walk of life, a feat no other civilization, past or present, has been able to duplicate so far anywhere else on this earth? "" For some time I've conjectured about Man Singh actually being Kerty. Now I realize that Man Singh is simply a side-kick to Kerty, such that he can be ordered by Kerty to tell DC about the wonders of India. However, maybe I'm wrong, since MS did not oblige, ignored his boss and Kerty filled on for him in post # 630, regaling us with theories of nar, naryana and vanara and how they rather than sociology enable us to better understand the complexities of this world, Indian and non-Indian. 340626@desicritics.org Sat, 30 Aug 2008 19:31:34 EDT